Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Like Edom: “It shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall ascend forever...” Isaiah 34:10
Like Sodom and Gomorrah: “...suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” Jude 7
Is there literally a woman standing on the moon? Actually a seven headed beast? Revelations is figurative, symbolic...a vision...
Only the righteous do NOT perish...have access to the tree of life...the means to immortality restored...
bibleverse2
New member
That's right, for:
Luke 16:23 . . . in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments . . .
Luke 16:24 . . . for I am tormented in this flame.
Also:
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
It is strange that the whole idea of hell has been buried in these modern times.
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Also, it should be pointed out that there are even two literal hells, one temporal and one eternal. The temporal hell, called "Hades" in Greek (Luke 16:23, G0086), and "Sheol" in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13, H7585), is where the souls of non-Christians go when they die, and where they are tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus Christ's first coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died. But the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).
After Jesus Christ fulfilled the Gospel by suffering and dying on the Cross for our sins, and rising physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), He went down into Hades and preached the fulfillment of the Gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6), and then drew the souls of obedient believers there who had died in faith (Hebrews 11:13) up with Him when He ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient Christians go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).
At Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, He will bring with Him from heaven the souls of all obedient Christians who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), all non-Christians of all times will be physically resurrected out of Hades and judged (Revelation 20:12-13) and then cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), where they will be tormented along with Satan and his fallen angels forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called "Gehenna" in Greek (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46, G1067), and "Tophet" in Hebrew (Isaiah 30:33, H8613).
Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10), just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside one wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8), as in a new surface for the earth. Christians will go forth from New Jerusalem on the New Earth to witness the eternal torment of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).
Aimiel
Well-known member
So John's descriptions of Heaven, also are just symbols? Sorry, but I'm capable of discerning between symbolic language and descriptive. Are you?
So there is a woman standing on the moon?
bibleverse2
New member
To properly understand Isaiah 34:10, it should be read in its context (Isaiah 34:1-17).
Isaiah 34:10 refers to a future event which will affect "all nations" (Isaiah 34:2), the whole world (Isaiah 34:1).
In Isaiah 34:5, "Idumea" (Edom) is not the ancient nation of Edom (present-day southern Jordan), but represents all nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as the apostle Paul employs a reference to the man "Esau" (also called Edom: Genesis 25:30, Genesis 36:1) to represent all nonelect people of all times throughout the world (Romans 9:11-22). And in Isaiah 34:6, "Bozrah" is not the ancient city of Bozrah, but represents all corrupt civilizations of all times throughout the world, just as the "Babylon" which will be destroyed in our future in Revelation chapters 17-18 is not the literal, ancient city of Babylon (nor the present-day one, in Iraq), but represents all corrupt civilizations of all times throughout the world.
Isaiah 34 does not refer to the destruction of the ancient city of Bozrah. For its territory is in present-day Jordan, and it is still inhabited (it could be the city of Busaira). It is not an eternally-burning land of fire and brimstone which no living person ever passes through, and will not ever pass through for all eternity (Isaiah 34:9-10).
Isaiah 34 will not be fulfilled until the future, Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), when the present surface of the earth and its atmosphere (the first heaven) will pass away (Revelation 20:11). And all nonelect people of all times throughout the world will be resurrected, judged, and cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15,10, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:10-11).
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Jude 1:7 does not say that the suffering of the people in Sodom and Gomorrha has been eternal, like the suffering of the people in the future Gehenna hell/the lake of fire will be eternal (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). Instead, Jude 1:7 simply says that the fire which killed the people in Sodom and Gomorrha was eternal fire, which would be some sort of spiritual fire which never goes out, like the fire in the Gehenna hell/the lake of fire will never go out (Mark 9:45-46, Isaiah 66:24).
Because we today do not see the eternal fire which destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha, God could have sent it deep under the earth after it had completed its destruction of those cities. Or, God could have taken it back up into heaven from whence it was cast down in Genesis 19:24.
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The book of Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for Christians of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it which are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12), and Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).
Just as Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the just-preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the Millennium in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal and will begin right after Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when He will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.
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Are you thinking of the mistaken idea of the eventual annihilation of non-Christians?
If so, do you base this on Matthew 10:28?
If so, note that there "destroy" does not have to mean annihilate. For the original Greek word (apollumi: G0622) can be used to refer to something simply being ruined (Mark 2:22), yet still existing in its ruined state (cf. Mark 9:45-46).
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Also, it should be pointed out that the mistaken idea of soul annihilation is usually twinned with the mistaken idea of soul sleep.
But only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51) and only their dead physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23) and the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). Also, the soul can remain conscious outside of the body whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).
So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' future, Second Coming, He will bring with Him from heaven all of the souls of all obedient Christians who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).
Sometime after the subsequent Millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), all of the souls in hell (i.e. all non-Christians who have ever died) will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15) which is the second death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28), and yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious and will suffer along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).
Also, the future, eternal conscious suffering of all non-Christians must not be considered as eternal life, but as an eternal, conscious, ongoing, second death (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45b-46).
marhig
Well-known member
What do you see "to be in hell" to mean? Thank you
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
The most sadistic, loveless, evil entity of any description couldn't hold a candle to that...
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
feel free to whine about it to God when you stand before Him :idunno:
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Nobody's whining about it, just pointing out the patently obvious. The cruellest being couldn't top "ECT", simple as that.
Is it loving for God to judge the wicked?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Define "wicked". Nobody, including you is "whiter than white". Is it loving for a parent to discipline a child? Sure, if it's done out of love. Ain't no love in imposing a state of unending suffering, quite the opposite.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
of course
btw - i must have missed the part where you claimed to be "whiter than white"
JR said:
apparently not
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
JR asks:
artie answers:
here, let me try
Define "judge". Clams have feet. Is it fair that I get ice cream and martians don't? Sure, because martians don't exist. Ain't no ice cream on mars, because there ain't no martians on mars. Quite the opposite.
there, i think that was as direct an answer as artie's
artie answers:
here, let me try
Define "judge". Clams have feet. Is it fair that I get ice cream and martians don't? Sure, because martians don't exist. Ain't no ice cream on mars, because there ain't no martians on mars. Quite the opposite.
there, i think that was as direct an answer as artie's
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
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