Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Aimiel

Well-known member
Aimiel,

re: "You can pretend that ECT doesn't exist all you want: God doesn't lie. He said that torment never ceases."

I don't see where that scripture says that. What do you have in mind?
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Are there words in this passage that you don't understand or is your grasp of the English language lacking? What are you missing? I'm thinking you're skimming instead of reading.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
What if Eternal Conscious Torment isn’t a very good label for how to present this absolutely authentic Christian doctrine?

Aidios and aionios are eternal and everlasting, respectively. Eternity is an incommunicable attribute of God alone, and aidios is barely used in the NT. Virtually all references are aionios, and variably rendered in English translations as everlasting or eternal; but the latter is most often considered to be the effect of God’s eternality relative to that which can only be everlasting.

Eternal is apart from time. There is no “eternity past” or any other time-based aspect. Eternity is timelessness, and is the incommunicable attribute of God alone apart from time.

Everlasting has a beginning. An inception. And then it is durative in whatever form/s of time going forward. In mathematics terms, everlasting is a ray. In mathematics terms, eternal is NOT a line. A line continues is two directions, indicating spatiality and/or sequentiality (space and/or time).

So the only things that are everlasting that are “eternal” are those whose state of being are influenced and underlied by God’s own essence of divinity as the one true and living God. Eternal is adjectival in this manner, while eternity (the noun) is innate to God alone. No one and nothing else is eternal in an intrinsic sense. Only those to whom God has applied His own eternity will have their everlasting as a qualitative existence.

It would really help to standardize definitions and conceptual understandings according to valid lexicography, whatever view one ultimately takes. But few, if any, are understanding the nature of eternity versus everlasting.


As for “conscious torment”, that should be understood as the state of being apart from God and His love-derived grace for all everlasting. It isn’t God maliciously perpetually roasting unbelievers over a giant celestial campfire like they’re marshmallows on an unending camping trip of divine terror.

The conscious torment is the result of spiritual death as separation from God’s prosopon (presence) versus being in His enopion (presence). So this isn’t God inflicting anything upon man, but is the result of man’s unresurrected inner man according to the hades man has chosen while frustrating God’s grace.

To reject ECT (there should be a better acronymic reference) is to deny that God’s grace is actually grace at all, and that man is entitled to that which only God can give. It’s the ultimate victim-stancing to reject hell and the lake of fire as being somehow unjust with man deserving something else or God’s a big green meanie-head.
 

JudgeRightly

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Eternal is apart from time. There is no “eternity past” or any other time-based aspect. Eternity is timelessness, and is the incommunicable attribute of God alone apart from time.

Everlasting has a beginning. An inception. And then it is durative in whatever form/s of time going forward. In mathematics terms, everlasting is a ray. In mathematics terms, eternal is NOT a line. A line continues is two directions, indicating spatiality and/or sequentiality (space and/or time).

On the contrary...

From Merriam-Webster:


1a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING
eternal damnation
b : of or relating to eternity
c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God
good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
— Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
2a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL
an eternal flame
b : seemingly endless
eternal delays
3 archaic : INFERNAL
some eternal villain … devised this slander
— William Shakespeare
4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS
eternal verities
eternal noun
Definition of eternal (Entry 2 of 2)
1 capitalized : GOD sense 1 —used with the
2 : something eternal

abiding, ageless, continuing, dateless, enduring, everlasting, immortal, imperishable, lasting, ongoing, perennial, perpetual, timeless, undying

More Definitions for eternal
eternal adjective
English Language Learners Definition of eternal
: having no beginning and no end in time : lasting forever
: existing at all times : always true or valid
: seeming to last forever

eternal adjective
eter·​nal | \ i-ˈtər-nᵊl \
Kids Definition of eternal
1 : lasting forever : having no beginning and no end
2 : continuing without interruption : seeming to last forever
eternal patience



Eternal doesn't mean "timeless".

It means INFINITE duration.

Timeless is contradictory to infinite duration.

Strong's:


Strong's g166

- Lexical: αἰώνιος
- Transliteration: aiónios
- Part of Speech: Adjective
- Phonetic Spelling: ahee-o'-nee-os
- Definition: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.
- Origin: From aion; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well).
- Usage: eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
- Translated as (count): eternal (66), an eternal (1), eternally (1), everlasting (1), of eternal (1), of the ages (1).



Where did you get the idea that "eternal" means "timeless"?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
On the contrary...

From Merriam-Webster:


1a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING
eternal damnation
b : of or relating to eternity
c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God
good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
— Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
2a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL
an eternal flame
b : seemingly endless
eternal delays
3 archaic : INFERNAL
some eternal villain … devised this slander
— William Shakespeare
4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS
eternal verities
eternal noun
Definition of eternal (Entry 2 of 2)
1 capitalized : GOD sense 1 —used with the
2 : something eternal

abiding, ageless, continuing, dateless, enduring, everlasting, immortal, imperishable, lasting, ongoing, perennial, perpetual, timeless, undying

More Definitions for eternal
eternal adjective
English Language Learners Definition of eternal
: having no beginning and no end in time : lasting forever
: existing at all times : always true or valid
: seeming to last forever

eternal adjective
eter·​nal | \ i-ˈtər-nᵊl \
Kids Definition of eternal
1 : lasting forever : having no beginning and no end
2 : continuing without interruption : seeming to last forever
eternal patience



Eternal doesn't mean "timeless".

It means INFINITE duration.

Timeless is contradictory to infinite duration.

Strong's:


Strong's g166

- Lexical: αἰώνιος
- Transliteration: aiónios
- Part of Speech: Adjective
- Phonetic Spelling: ahee-o'-nee-os
- Definition: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.
- Origin: From aion; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well).
- Usage: eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
- Translated as (count): eternal (66), an eternal (1), eternally (1), everlasting (1), of eternal (1), of the ages (1).



Where did you get the idea that "eternal" means "timeless"?

Endless is merely going forward, and Strong’s is limited here. You need to be looking at both aidios and aionios, not just the latter. The former only appears in 2 places in all of scripture, and it’s the key to understanding the latter.

Aidios (eternity) is superordinate to aionios (everlasting). All that is eternal (God) is also aionios, but all that is aionios is not aidios. Aidios determines the quality of everlastingness.

All humans as living souls are everlasting; but not all have the divine quality of eternality determining the quality of their endless duration. This is why the everlastingness of those without Christ is torment. They don’t have God’s divine nature determining the endless durative reality of their existence.

Hey, I’m just trying to help against the Annihilationists. I’m fine if you reject the depths of lexicography.

Aionios is endless ages. That’s a “ray”, in mathematics terms. Aidios is far beyond merely being a line by comparison, even though relative to creation it also can be perceived in that manner.

Eternity is not a time term (or at least it’s demonstrating that the adjectival application comes from beyond time to determine the qualitative relative to time). Everlasting is a time term. Endless is merely a designation of unending time of whatever form.

Eternity is one of God’s incommunicable attributes, and He’s beyond time. Endless duration is a time-based definition.

I’m fine if you don’t accept that. But now you’ve made God of infinite duration subject to time.

So now there’s no distinction whatsoever between Eternity and Aeviternity. Now time is greater than God and He didn’t create any and all forms of time.

Proceed.


(Ask Mr. Religion... Here’s my issue with modernist understandings right here. And current dictionaries even support it with generalities that fail to distinguish the qualitative overarching distinctions between aidios and aionios, which is horrific.)
 
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Derf

Well-known member
Just revisiting this thread with my blog-link on ECT above and extended commentaries for those interested. I still find it boggling that many still believe in ECT, talk about 'cognitive dissonance' with a God who is all loving and merciful.

Blog Portal on ECT here.

If ECT is in the bible, and if the bible is God's word, and if God is all-loving and merciful, then it isn't cognitive dissonance, unless you are claiming cognitive dissonance in the bible.

Some verses to help us to understand the extent of God's mercy:
[Exo 20:5 KJV] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
[Exo 20:6 KJV] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
[Exo 20:7 KJV] Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

[Exo 34:6 KJV] And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
[Exo 34:7 KJV] Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

[Exo 33:9 KJV] And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.


His mercy is an exclusive mercy, according to Him. And if He's "all merciful", you have to understand what He means by that (as well as what YOU mean by it). He doesn't mean nobody ever gets punished for disobeying Him. And if someone doesn't ever repent, then God, being a righteous judge, seems justified in not relenting in their punishment.
 

clefty

New member
All humans as living souls are everlasting; but not all have the divine quality of eternality determining the quality of their endless duration. This is why the everlastingness of those without Christ is torment. They don’t have God’s divine nature determining the endless durative reality of their existence.

Hey, I’m just trying to help against the Annihilationists. I’m fine if you reject the depths of lexicography.

Ye shall not surely die eh?

Hmmm...

We...all humans...living souls everlasting? odd that we are dependent on the tree of life...


To NOT be like “one of Us...and reach out and take also of the tree of life...and eat, and live forever” Yah merely threw us out of the garden and guarded the way to the tree of life...

But on THAT DAY...you know...the Second coming...the day of resurrection...every eye shall see Him...His people Israel will PUT ON immortality...NOT become immortal...and have access again to the tree of life...STILL NOT IMMORTAL...

Only One is...

Fear the One Who can destroy both flesh AND souls...
 

rstrats

Active member
Aimiel,
re: "Are there words in this passage that you don't understand..."

Not that I know of.



re: "...or is your grasp of the English language lacking?"

I don't think so, although I do have trouble sometimes remembering how to punctuate a quote within a quote when it comes at the end of a sentence.



re:" What are you missing?"

I'm missing where the passage says that folks are going to be tortured 24/7 for time everlasting.
 

FineLinen

Well-known member
Aionios: A Scriptural Study

http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity-detailedstudy.html

How eternity slipped in?

https://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity

ClementofA

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

Dr. Marvin Vincent

http://www.mercyuponall.org/2016/11...note-on-eternal-destruction-olethron-aionion/

Jonathan Mitchell Eonian

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/eternal-eonian-life/

‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.”
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Aionios: A Scriptural Study

http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity-detailedstudy.html

How eternity slipped in?

https://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity

ClementofA

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

Dr. Marvin Vincent

http://www.mercyuponall.org/2016/11...note-on-eternal-destruction-olethron-aionion/

Jonathan Mitchell Eonian

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/eternal-eonian-life/

‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.”
this is:spam:

pick a paragraph from a website that you are up to defending
quote it with a link for context ,state the point of the paragraph you want to defend, post it .

but without reading any of your links
aiōnios is used for both life and punishment.
everlasting life and everlasting punishment

do your links argue against everlasting life ?

Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
 

FineLinen

Well-known member
this is:spam:

pick a paragraph from a website that you are up to defending
quote it with a link for context ,state the point of the paragraph you want to defend, post it .

but without reading any of your links
aiōnios is used for both life and punishment.
everlasting life and everlasting punishment

do your links argue against everlasting life ?

Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy for you>>>

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?

Please Note

This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy for you>>>

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?

Please Note

This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!

Mat 25:46
 

FineLinen

Well-known member

Wow! That was a powerful response. Matt. 25 is the passage of Canon under consideration. The proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks. Why?? Go for it my friend, just do it and we will proceed to additional questions.

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1.____________________________________________?

2.____________________________________________?

3.____________________________________________?

4.____________________________________________?

5.____________________________________________?
 
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rstrats

Active member
way 2 to,
re: "Mat 25:46"

Why do you want to believe that the punishment is torture forever instead of death for ever?
 

FineLinen

Well-known member
way 2 to,
re: "Mat 25:46"

Why do you want to believe that the punishment is torture forever instead of death for ever?

Death & hell are consummated in the Lake of Fire & Divinity.

"And there shall be no more death..."

No more death>>>>no more hell!

God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta
 

Derf

Well-known member
Aionios: A Scriptural Study

http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity-detailedstudy.html

How eternity slipped in?

https://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity

ClementofA

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

Dr. Marvin Vincent

http://www.mercyuponall.org/2016/11...note-on-eternal-destruction-olethron-aionion/

Jonathan Mitchell Eonian

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/eternal-eonian-life/

‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.”

Hi FineLinen,
I read some of your references. I can see some merit in some of their points. But since several talk about mercy, and how a merciful God would not consciously torment anyone forever, what length of conscious torment would you consider to be merciful? An hour? A day? A year?, A hundred years?
 
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