Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Derf

Well-known member
This is old hat,...hashed it out in many commentaries here already :) - now one can jump on the merry-go-round again, but to save dizziness........;)

If you find 'terms' that make sense to you (all relative by the way, 'life' and 'death'), by all means have fun with them, but as far as finding any real meaning or value in those 'terms', thats another story. On a literal level, its all just more 'alphabet soup' :coffee:

'Karma' still holds no matter what world you live in, as long as any aspect of life or consciousness is 'conditional' by thought, words and actions, and thats just a universal fact of 'karma', sugar coat or re-define the term anyway you choose. All existence is but a phase, modulation or individual mode, function or expression of 'consciousness',..thats it. You're better off I think studying the entire gamut of psychical research and Spiritualist text and spirit-communications from the past few centuries, NDE and Afterlife research to get a better grasp on the total subject and implications involved than just using one archaic and limited religious book (confined within a cult-ural-context), assuming that book is the 'end all' & 'be all' of revelation, when I propose it is not, neither indeed can be, since there is on-going progressive revelation. My former thread on 'NDE's and the Afterlife' bore this out years ago here. - I've seen too much to encapsulate the total of reality to just a 'biblical' context, because infinity and knowledge itself cannot be so contained or limited thereby.

So,...play in any section of the cherry orchard you like (knock yourself out),...you're still picking cherries :angel:

As are you. That Karma hybrid seems to be a favorite of a number of folks.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Raining on your theology parade.......

Raining on your theology parade.......

As are you. That Karma hybrid seems to be a favorite of a number of folks.

I never denied being a fellow soul pioneer, mystic or mind maverick :) - I'm just as good a baker or cook too, playing with the 'cosmic-dough' that 'God' and the 'gods' gave us to work with :cool:

'Karma' simply means 'action' and all the associated affections/effects/consequences of such 'action',...so 'karma' includes the totality of all movements in existence, so its quite innate to life and all dimensions of existence (IF any movement or relativity of any kind exist, where the dynamic of 'creation' and 'evolution' are at PLAY). We have a thread on karma here :thumb:

While I share on the concept on karma there, my views are always subject to change, especially with the shifting of 'context'. What is significant in my bringing up of 'karma' is that this entire debate on eschatology, personal or dispensations is BASED ON 'karma'. In other words, it is the thoughts, words and deeds (choices/decisions) that one makes and the actions that one does which DETERMINE his condition, fate or destiny along the path of life, which is subject to the laws that govern 'creation' and 'evolution', and this appears to be a universal law. I think i've made that abundantly clear in former commentary.

"By their works (karma) they shall be judged and rewarded",..."as one sows, that also shall he reap", "the kind of seed you plant will be the kind of harvest you receive", and so on. There are different nuances and qualifications of action, choice and consequence, but this is what DETERMINES the outcome of your own personal eschatology (ultimate ends, results, destinations), if you will, your own experience of 'life' or 'death'....isnt this so? - it will be "according to your thoughts, words and actions.

Arguing over what 'death' is is back to diving into the intellectual soup-pond, since whether you contend the 'dead' are just spiritually numb, yet quite conscious (in outer darkness or some 'void' nether-world).....or just full-blown brain-dead (unconscious or 'non-existent', destroyed, dis-integrated, or whatever)...its still just a concept beyond what any particular soul experiences for himself, which is wholly subjective.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I never denied being a fellow soul pioneer, mystic or mind maverick :) - I'm just as good a baker or cook too, playing with the 'cosmic-dough' that 'God' and the 'gods' gave us to work with :cool:

'Karma' simply means 'action' and all the associated affections/effects/consequences of such 'action',...so 'karma' includes the totality of all movements in existence, so its quite innate to life and all dimensions of existence (IF any movement or relativity of any kind exist, where the dynamic of 'creation' and 'evolution' are at PLAY). We have a thread on karma here :thumb:

While I share on the concept on karma there, my views are always subject to change, especially with the shifting of 'context'. What is significant in my bringing up of 'karma' is that this entire debate on eschatology, personal or dispensations is BASED ON 'karma'. In other words, it is the thoughts, words and deeds (choices/decisions) that one makes and the actions that one does which DETERMINE his condition, fate or destiny along the path of life, which is subject to the laws that govern 'creation' and 'evolution', and this appears to be a universal law. I think i've made that abundantly clear in former commentary.

"By their works (karma) they shall be judged and rewarded",..."as one sows, that also shall he reap", "the kind of seed you plant will be the kind of harvest you receive", and so on. There are different nuances and qualifications of action, choice and consequence, but this is what DETERMINES the outcome of your own personal eschatology (ultimate ends, results, destinations), if you will, your own experience of 'life' or 'death'....isnt this so? - it will be "according to your thoughts, words and actions.

Arguing over what 'death' is is back to diving into the intellectual soup-pond, since whether you contend the 'dead' are just spiritually numb, yet quite conscious (in outer darkness or some 'void' nether-world).....or just full-blown brain-dead (unconscious or 'non-existent', destroyed, dis-integrated, or whatever)...its still just a concept beyond what any particular soul experiences for himself, which is wholly subjective.
It was the cherry picking I was commenting on. You are exceptional at it.

The other thing Karma does is negate the gospel of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins,
as it requires each man to pay for his own sins. Karma is not good news to anyone.[/URL]
 
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Rosenritter

New member
Arguing over what 'death' is is back to diving into the intellectual soup-pond, since whether you contend the 'dead' are just spiritually numb, yet quite conscious (in outer darkness or some 'void' nether-world).....or just full-blown brain-dead (unconscious or 'non-existent', destroyed, dis-integrated, or whatever)...its still just a concept beyond what any particular soul experiences for himself, which is wholly subjective.

I can't speak for everyone, but I've "experienced" unconsciousness for myself, so other than the seeming contradiction of experiencing a non-experience, I can testify that it is possible to be without consciousness. I have to wonder about people that argue that destroying our soul to an even further degree will turn unconsciousness into consciousness.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
How you like these cherries?

How you like these cherries?

It was the cherry picking I was commenting on. You are exceptional at it.

Plenty of bible thumpers and theologians are cherry picking just as much as any other professor or freelance philosopher ;) - I've been working my craft for many years, and enjoying it,....it just so happens that the 'God' I entertain and advocate is the source of all potentials and possibilites. Fortunately I havent put this 'God' into a special 'box' (container), neither confined the infinite DEITY to a 'program', 'tradition', single 'cult-ure' or paradigm. If thats 'cherry-picking', then pass the cherry bowl. Much pop-theology is just as good as stale pop-corn, over-microwaved and mass produced.

The other thing Karma does is negate the gospel of Jesus' sacrifice for our sins,
as it requires each man to pay for his own sins. Karma is not good news to anyone.

I dont agree,...all my points and observations about 'karma' in former commentary still holds. I may have different views or modifications of it in time, but they are there to seriously consider in principle, unless you would deny natural laws of cause/effect, action/consequence, seed-time/harvest, which human experience and religious passages confirm and expound upon. God (universal law of action and the conditional effects of thoughts, words, deeds) cannot be 'mocked', since what is sown is reaped. This law cannot be denied, unless there exists a condition of being that is beyond ALL CONDITIONING. - hencforth, the law of karma still has its place, and by it....all souls are still 'rewarded' or 'compensated' (for better or worse) by their deeds. - "and all were judged according to their works". I dont see how you can deny the law of karma, for your belief in 'Jesus blood' to atone for sins does not abrogate neither reverse or erase your own 'penalties' or 'suffering' imposed upon yourself by your own actions. If it has, then show or prove where it has. - every soul still dies (suffers in some way) for its own sins, and every soul also ATONES for his own sins by his own reparation and repentance.

The gospel is more the goodnews of the kingdom of heaven you can enter into and experience NOW, by your own repentance, reception of divine grace and the living of that reality, rather than some acceptance of a blood atonement that is magically supposed to erase or pay for your sins by some spiritual osmosis. (I've shared my views on 'blood atonement' amply elsewhere, and do not deny the symbolic or esoteric meaning of 'blood', but such must be contextually understood). By the soul's own transformation of consciousness and its redirection of attention via 'repentance', surely the way of re-turning to 'God' is realized, and this alone is the way. The goodnews is that the way of truth and life can be realized even as Jesus lived and realized it, Jesus showing that way of life by example, whereby he says "FOLLOW ME". - by his own sacrificial surrender to 'God', he showed the way, by divine will and loving service. That path is a 'living sacrifice', the Christ-way.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
I can't speak for everyone, but I've "experienced" unconsciousness for myself, so other than the seeming contradiction of experiencing a non-experience, I can testify that it is possible to be without consciousness. I have to wonder about people that argue that destroying our soul to an even further degree will turn unconsciousness into consciousness.

Since we are dealing with the very nature, dynamic and individual experience of 'consciousness', its a complex and mysterious thing. We can metaphysically dissect and speculate til the cows come home. I enjoy philosophizing with the best of em, but where does this take us? I still see there being a better support for more passages speaking of the second death being an actual disintegration of individual conscious existence, the destruction of the soul living on as a functioning personality. (soul death, cessation of existence). - although my more theosophical/spiritualist inclinations loves the concept of an 'immortal soul' progressing thru multiple incarnations, etc.

But as shared before, relagating this discussion to what is so called 'biblically' qualified is somewhat arbitrary and limiting, since a truth seeker would gather all info, data, knowledge about consciousness, the afterlife, psychical studies, religious texts, and do a comprehensive research on the subject before drawing any conclusion limited to one religious cult or book. There is just so much more involved in this query than just volleying passages around and cross-examining them, when more evidence exists in the universal court to consider and research, since I dont see the Bible as containing the totality of truth, NEITHER is it the final compendium or authority of truth, since there is prorgressive revelation, and the Spirit of truth is still leading, guiding and teaching. There is also NOWHWERE in the Bible itself that says it is the absolute, total or FINAL revelation of truth.
 

Rosenritter

New member
But as shared before, relagating this discussion to what is so called 'biblically' qualified is somewhat arbitrary and limiting, since a truth seeker would gather all info, data, knowledge about consciousness, the afterlife, psychical studies, religious texts, and do a comprehensive research on the subject before drawing any conclusion limited to one religious cult or book.

Hardly arbitrary and hardly limiting.

There is just so much more involved in this query than just volleying passages around and cross-examining them, when more evidence exists in the universal court to consider and research, since I dont see the Bible as containing the totality of truth, NEITHER is it the final compendium or authority of truth, since there is prorgressive revelation, and the Spirit of truth is still leading, guiding and teaching. There is also NOWHWERE in the Bible itself that says it is the absolute, total or FINAL revelation of truth.

Psalms 12:6-7 KJV
(6) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
(7) Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalms 138:2 KJV
(2) I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

John 10:35 KJV
(35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Romans 3:4 KJV
(4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Titus 1:2 KJV
(2) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Revelation 22:6 KJV
(6) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.


Separating out your statements of opinion (of which there are many) you are incorrect in your only attempted statement of fact. The Bible most certainly does say that it is the absolute revelation of truth. Hold your own opinion where you wish, but please don't confuse the fact.
 
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Rosenritter

New member
I dont agree,...all my points and observations about 'karma' in former commentary still holds. I may have different views or modifications of it in time, but they are there to seriously consider in principle, unless you would deny natural laws of cause/effect, action/consequence, seed-time/harvest, which human experience and religious passages confirm and expound upon. God (universal law of action and the conditional effects of thoughts, words, deeds) cannot be 'mocked', since what is sown is reaped. This law cannot be denied, unless there exists a condition of being that is beyond ALL CONDITIONING. - hencforth, the law of karma still has its place, and by it....all souls are still 'rewarded' or 'compensated' (for better or worse) by their deeds. - "and all were judged according to their works". I dont see how you can deny the law of karma, for your belief in 'Jesus blood' to atone for sins does not abrogate neither reverse or erase your own 'penalties' or 'suffering' imposed upon yourself by your own actions. If it has, then show or prove where it has. - every soul still dies (suffers in some way) for its own sins, and every soul also ATONES for his own sins by his own reparation and repentance.

The gospel is more the goodnews of the kingdom of heaven you can enter into and experience NOW, by your own repentance, reception of divine grace and the living of that reality, rather than some acceptance of a blood atonement that is magically supposed to erase or pay for your sins by some spiritual osmosis.

1. Those same passages that you referenced tell us that the kingdom of heaven is what comes at the end of the age, when Christ returns with his holy angels. The kingdom of heaven is not now, it is to come.

2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2. We cannot atone for our own sins. All have sinned, and the wages of that sin is death. We are told that a murderer does not have eternal life, yet we know that some have committed murder and been forgiven: David and Paul are among these.

Hebrews 9:26-28 KJV
(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

You asked for a show or proof. There you go.
 
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Derf

Well-known member
Plenty of bible thumpers and theologians are cherry picking just as much as any other professor or freelance philosopher ;) - I've been working my craft for many years, and enjoying it,....it just so happens that the 'God' I entertain and advocate is the source of all potentials and possibilites.
Including the "bad" potentials and possibilities?

Fortunately I havent put this 'God' into a special 'box' (container), neither confined the infinite DEITY to a 'program', 'tradition', single 'cult-ure' or paradigm.
Yes, I believe you have. It's your own idea of what is truth, whether made up in some dark corner of your mind, or stolen from someone else's. If there is a God, the only one that is competent to describe Him fully is Himself. Everyone else "boxes" Him in.

I dont agree,...all my points and observations about 'karma' in former commentary still holds. I may have different views or modifications of it in time, but they are there to seriously consider in principle, unless you would deny natural laws of cause/effect, action/consequence, seed-time/harvest, which human experience and religious passages confirm and expound upon. God (universal law of action and the conditional effects of thoughts, words, deeds) cannot be 'mocked',
You mock God by degrading Him to a law of cause and effect.
since what is sown is reaped. This law cannot be denied, unless there exists a condition of being that is beyond ALL CONDITIONING. - hencforth, the law of karma still has its place, and by it....all souls are still 'rewarded' or 'compensated' (for better or worse) by their deeds. - "and all were judged according to their works". I dont see how you can deny the law of karma, for your belief in 'Jesus blood' to atone for sins does not abrogate neither reverse or erase your own 'penalties' or 'suffering' imposed upon yourself by your own actions. If it has, then show or prove where it has. - every soul still dies (suffers in some way) for its own sins, and every soul also ATONES for his own sins by his own reparation and repentance.
You speak with forked tongue, Kemosabe. You say you don't agree that the gospel is made of no effect by your doctrine of karma, yet you go on to say that everyone must atone for his own sins.

The gospel is more the goodnews of the kingdom of heaven you can enter into and experience NOW, by your own repentance, reception of divine grace and the living of that reality, rather than some acceptance of a blood atonement that is magically supposed to erase or pay for your sins by some spiritual osmosis. (I've shared my views on 'blood atonement' amply elsewhere, and do not deny the symbolic or esoteric meaning of 'blood', but such must be contextually understood). By the soul's own transformation of consciousness and its redirection of attention via 'repentance', surely the way of re-turning to 'God' is realized, and this alone is the way. The goodnews is that the way of truth and life can be realized even as Jesus lived and realized it, Jesus showing that way of life by example, whereby he says "FOLLOW ME". - by his own sacrificial surrender to 'God', he showed the way, by divine will and loving service. That path is a 'living sacrifice', the Christ-way.
Riddle me this, Batman... How can a man atone for his sins by dying (since that is the penalty for sin) and yet live? Repentance is insufficient, as it only applies goodness to the future acts--not the ones prior to repentance. If the wages of sin is death, and we all die, at what point do you think your repentance will do some good?

And please don't just point me to your voluminous other posts. I can guarantee you I won't have time (nor the desire) to read them. If you don't want to have this conversation with me, that's fine, but you don't get credit for past deeds of writing in this karmatic conversation.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Hardly arbitrary and hardly limiting.



Psalms 12:6-7 KJV
(6) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
(7) Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalms 138:2 KJV
(2) I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

John 10:35 KJV
(35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Romans 3:4 KJV
(4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Titus 1:2 KJV
(2) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Revelation 22:6 KJV
(6) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.


Separating out your statements of opinion (of which there are many) you are incorrect in your only attempted statement of fact. The Bible most certainly does say that it is the absolute revelation of truth. Hold your own opinion where you wish, but please don't confuse the fact.

My former commentary holds. You have not proved anywhere that the bible is a complete, absolute or final revelation of truth.
 

JudgeRightly

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My former commentary holds. You have not proved anywhere that the bible is a complete, absolute or final revelation of truth.

FL, if something is unfalsifiable, ie no method by which to determine if something is true and accurate by way of showing that it is false, then you can and should reject it as fact.

The Bible gives us several ways to falsify it, the most important of which is Paul's claim:

Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. - 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians15:12-19&version=NKJV

It boils down to this:

If Christ did not rise from the dead, then all of Christianity is in vain, and we Christians are to be pitied. But if Christ did rise from the dead, then all other religions are false, and everyone should turn to God and repent of their sins.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Theodicy bytes........

Theodicy bytes........

Including the "bad" potentials and possibilities?

Yes, I posited 'God' being the source of all that is potential and possible, because nothing can exist or be possible apart from the original source of all potential and possibility.

If you want to frame this in a 'biblical' context, have at it, since passages speak of 'God' dwelling in darkness, as well as being the creator of both good and evil. Argue word translations or semantics,...'God' is still the the one who allows all potentials to be, and all possibilities must exist within his universal providence. Do you deny this?
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Lets have another look

Lets have another look

FL, if something is unfalsifiable, ie no method by which to determine if something is true and accurate by way of showing that it is false, then you can and should reject it as fact.

The Bible gives us several ways to falsify it, the most important of which is Paul's claim:

Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. - 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians15:12-19&version=NKJV

It boils down to this:

If Christ did not rise from the dead, then all of Christianity is in vain, and we Christians are to be pitied. But if Christ did rise from the dead, then all other religions are false, and everyone should turn to God and repent of their sins.

JR,

The paragraph you replied to holds. Neither does the proposition above by Paul address my challenge towards the belief or concept of 'bibical inerrancy' or ' divine inspiration', it being his own dissertation upon the resurrection, which could be interpreted allegorically. Figurative or otherwise, the Bible nowhere claims to contain the complete, total or finality of truth,....since there is progressive revelation.

Furthermore Paul's gospel is his own revelation, which he claims centers on Christ dying and rising on the 3rd day "according to the scriptures", yet there is little at all in the OT about a dying, rising messiah. His gospel is mostly a mixture of different religious themes/concepts notably gnostic, esoteric and allegorical in nature. We would note that not even Paul claims the OT is inerrant, complete or final for he brings his own new personal revelation as a new dispensation!

The spirit of truth (and other divine spirits) are teachers, revealers and guides. Religious books and writings serve their purpose but those books are not necessarily the finality of revelation, neither are they to be worshipped as such.
 

Rosenritter

New member
My former commentary holds. You have not proved anywhere that the bible is a complete, absolute or final revelation of truth.

No, your former commentary does not hold. You claimed that the Bible made no such claim.

Had you acknowledged that the Bible does claim to the an absolute and final authority, and then claimed that this lacked substantiation, then perhaps we could have dealt with that question. There's no point in going further in a discussion without establishing its foundation. Are you at least willing to amend your commentary to acknowledge that the Bible does make the claim to be an absolute authority of truth?

I don't want to play a shell game with a moving target.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Furthermore Paul's gospel is his own revelation, which he claims centers on Christ dying and rising on the 3rd day "according to the scriptures", yet there is little at all in the OT about a dying, rising messiah. His gospel is mostly a mixture of different religious themes/concepts notably gnostic, esoteric and allegorical in nature. We would note that not even Paul claims the OT is inerrant, complete or final for he brings his own new personal revelation as a new dispensation!

If you want to challenge the authenticity of scripture, you need to be responsible in your statements.

1. The scriptures include more than the Old Testament. The gospel accounts are scripture, for example. Regadless, the Old Testament does include Christ's death and resurrection. Are you granting the death and resurrection claim, and only disagreeing with the "third day" premise?

2. Paul most certainly does proceed on an unquestioned premise that the scripture is an inerrant authority. Need evidence? Compare his writing to your own. Paul does not contradict scripture, but rather continues to use it for support and authority. Paul says he was a Pharisee of Pharisees, and with that comes the acknowledgement of the authority of scripture.

3. Personal revelation can be a valid source of authority. Paul was struck blind in front of witnesses, and he was healed of God in front of witnesses of the church. Other signs followed him as well. If you have such miracles that we can see and observe that have been given to establish your authority, then perhaps we might consider your revelations as well, if, and only if, they do not contradict scripture.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Truth be told...............

Truth be told...............

No, your former commentary does not hold. You claimed that the Bible made no such claim.

All readers here can read our previous dialogue, and it does still HOLD.

NONE of the passages you shared PROVE neither do they specify or profess that the Bible (a 'term' by the way later made up to identify a particular collection of books of one or more religious traditions) that it is 'absolute', 'perfect' or 'FINAL', (let alone inerrant or infallible) especially when filtered thru imperfect mortals. We could dissect each verse, and no one would deny it speaks highly of itself or the Lords words as being pure, good, inspiring, 'perfect', holy, but these must be interpreted in their 'proper context'. I see no reason to believe in 'biblical inerrancy' let alone 'infallibility' because such a belief is 'unnecessary' as I've posited elsewhere. It would come down to your own 'choice' and 'prefrence' to BELIEVE such.

Had you acknowledged that the Bible does claim to the an absolute and final authority, and then claimed that this lacked substantiation, then perhaps we could have dealt with that question.

You're presupposing/presuming that as a pretextual assumption here, so defining terms on your own grounds. The claim that the Bible is 'absolute' or 'final' in its revelation or authority is only a 'belief', unless you can prove otherwise according to a criteria or objectivity of truth, but its still 'subjectively' assumed.

There's no point in going further in a discussion without establishing its foundation. Are you at least willing to amend your commentary to acknowledge that the Bible does make the claim to be an absolute authority of truth?

NO. I could not assign a mere book a position or status of 'absolute authority of truth', since only 'God' (the supreme source of all life, light, wisdom, power, etc.) can in any sense be 'absolute'. - religious books MAY of course be more or less inspired, but the truth of anything is in its essence, principle, ethic....its essential meaning and value. - translations, interpretations, points of view, opinions or beliefs may distort (in fact every translation is a distortion of the original) and misrepresent truth.

I don't want to play a shell game with a moving target.

Leave the shells alone.

My former response here to the passages you shared to prove your defined terms of assumption do not necessarily, let alone definitively hold. Again, those passage do not prove some kind of exclusive absolutity of truth to a collection of books that were formed later called the 'Bible', NEITHER do they CLAIM to be 'absolute', 'perfect' or 'final' in their immediate context, except that the meaning and value of the words are pure, good, true, useful, enduring, etc. (naturally a religious or philosophical text will be favorable to itself as a meaningful source of information). There is no claim anywhere that the writing itself within any revelational context even, is the one and ONLY truth in existence, neither the FINAL REVELATION of 'God'. - Remember the principle of ongoing progressive revelation? Do we dismiss this? Is the Spirit of truth continuing to lead, guide and teach souls into all truth? Are you a minister of the dead letters or the Spirit? Which is life? (words/books have their 'use' of course....they serve as 'means' not as an END).

Finally let us consider that Deity Alone is source-reality, light, truth, wisdom, love, etc. All meanings and values derive from infinite Spirit Alone,...so any given revelation or religious dissertation may be more or less inspired, relatively true or contextually appropriate, and this possibly to different audiences and calibers of understanding. This is not an onslaught against the Bible per se, for other religious traditions have their 'scriptures' too which have meaning and value particularly "suited" to themselves, their cultural context, beyond any universal meanings or values already existing at the heart of things.
 

JudgeRightly

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All readers here can read our previous dialogue, and it does still HOLD.

NONE of the passages you shared PROVE neither do they specify or profess that the Bible (a 'term' by the way later made up to identify a particular collection of books of one or more religious traditions) that it is 'absolute', 'perfect' or 'FINAL', (let alone inerrant or infallible) especially when filtered thru imperfect mortals.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. - 2 Timothy 3:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy3:16-17&version=NKJV

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. - John 14:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John14:6&version=NKJV

That's just two verses out of the Bible.

And then there's the extra-Biblical evidence for the truthfulness of the Bible.

Much of the Bible is written not in the form of a philosophy book or theology book, but a history book (consider Luke 3:1-2). The Bible presents not a mystical message and not a contradictory message of feelings and emotions that sometimes tends to contradict or some kind of eastern mysticism like Hinduism where their ideas so often contradict. The bible on the other hand is a history book claiming that actual events happened in history and that these prove the story and the message of the Bible, and therefore if these events did not happen, we should discount the message of the Bible. But on the other hand, if the events actually occurred then at the very least we should take seriously the message of the Bible.

In other words, if there's evidence that the storyes in the Bible really took place, then perhaps the moral of the story is true also.

We could dissect each verse, and no one would deny it speaks highly of itself or the Lords words as being pure, good, inspiring, 'perfect', holy, but these must be interpreted in their 'proper context'. I see no reason to believe in 'biblical inerrancy' let alone 'infallibility' because such a belief is 'unnecessary' as I've posited elsewhere. It would come down to your own 'choice' and 'preference' to BELIEVE such.

If we can show one story of the Bible to be true, and that's all, then we can say the Bible has some truth, but on average it's not reliable, so you can take or leave it's moral message.

But there are many, many stories in the Bible, and all the greatest stories of the Bible have evidence that remains to this day showing the story to be true. If all the stories are true, then there is overwhelming evidence that the message of the bible is true.

That's the difference between the Bible and other religious books that are not historical. You don't have that test of history and evidence to apply to the other books. But even books that are based on the Bible, such as the Quran (which refers frequently to the Bible) and the Book of Mormon, which attempts to copy the style of the Bible as a history book, cannot truly hold up to scrutiny. Let's take the Book of Mormon for example, which makes historical claims that cannot be verified, and in fact have proven to be completely false. The major historical claim of the Book of Mormon is that the American Indians are descendants of the Jews, yet not their language, their genetics, their culture, their diet, their religious views, their architecture, the tools that they used, nothing supports that claim, so we take the Book of Mormon and we say, "This book is not true." It's main historical argument is not true, therefore it's message is highly suspect. The historical message is corrupt and the spiritual message is corrupt, whereas the Bible on the other hand states throughout that there is one God that we worship.

So our Bible's historical claims gives us a context in which we can begin to study, test it, look at the evidence, and to reason, as God says "Let us reason together."

You're presupposing/presuming that as a pretextual assumption here, so defining terms on your own grounds. The claim that the Bible is 'absolute' or 'final' in its revelation or authority is only a 'belief', unless you can prove otherwise according to a criteria or objectivity of truth, but its still 'subjectively' assumed.

There is no presupposition required. Many Christians say one has to presuppose that the Bible is true. We say no, you can just look at the evidence. Christians who say, "well, you just have to have faith," (presuppositional movement) forget that faith is the evidence of things not seen.

NO. I could not assign a mere book a position or status of 'absolute authority of truth', since only 'God' (the supreme source of all life, light, wisdom, power, etc.) can in any sense be 'absolute'. - religious books MAY of course be more or less inspired, but the truth of anything is in its essence, principle, ethic....its essential meaning and value. - translations, interpretations, points of view, opinions or beliefs may distort (in fact every translation is a distortion of the original) and misrepresent truth.

If a book's historical claims are inaccurate, then it is most likely unreliable when it comes to moral teachings.

On the other hand, if a book's historical claims are accurate, then its moral teachings will most likely be of value.

Yes, translations introduce inaccuracies in spelling and grammar, and since the Bible has been translated from Hebrew and Greek into English, there is the possibility of introducing errors into the text. However, even though there are errors that, in spite of the careful transcription of the texts throughout the centuries, have made it into the text, the errors are usually so minor that they don't change the meaning of the surrounding text, and the overarching message of the Bible remains the same. Or what, do you think that the God of the universe couldn't write a book and have it survive translation? (Oh, and lets not forget those oh so important original manuscripts, like the Dead Sea Scrolls, which we can use to compare between the originals and our modern texts, and see that the message is the same.

Leave the shells alone.

My former response here to the passages you shared to prove your defined terms of assumption do not necessarily, let alone definitively hold. Again, those passage do not prove some kind of exclusive absolutity of truth to a collection of books that were formed later called the 'Bible', NEITHER do they CLAIM to be 'absolute', 'perfect' or 'final' in their immediate context, except that the meaning and value of the words are pure, good, true, useful, enduring, etc. (naturally a religious or philosophical text will be favorable to itself as a meaningful source of information). There is no claim anywhere that the writing itself within any revelational context even, is the one and ONLY truth in existence, neither the FINAL REVELATION of 'God'. -

The claim that the Bible is true comes from it's historical claims.

Remember the principle of ongoing progressive revelation? Do we dismiss this? Is the Spirit of truth continuing to lead, guide and teach souls into all truth? Are you a minister of the dead letters or the Spirit? Which is life? (words/books have their 'use' of course....they serve as 'means' not as an END).

Finally let us consider that Deity Alone is source-reality, light, truth, wisdom, love, etc. All meanings and values derive from infinite Spirit Alone,...so any given revelation or religious dissertation may be more or less inspired, relatively true or contextually appropriate, and this possibly to different audiences and calibers of understanding. This is not an onslaught against the Bible per se, for other religious traditions have their 'scriptures' too which have meaning and value particularly "suited" to themselves, their cultural context, beyond any universal meanings or values already existing at the heart of things.

I addressed this above.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Yes, I posited 'God' being the source of all that is potential and possible, because nothing can exist or be possible apart from the original source of all potential and possibility.

If you want to frame this in a 'biblical' context, have at it, since passages speak of 'God' dwelling in darkness, as well as being the creator of both good and evil. Argue word translations or semantics,...'God' is still the the one who allows all potentials to be, and all possibilities must exist within his universal providence. Do you deny this?

I am quite honored that you have bestowed on me one of your shortest posts ever (at least in my own knowledge of your posts).

Certainly, if God is the source of everything, then He is responsible for all we see--without Him it would not have begun to exist.

But the creation of independently-minded beings--for whatever purpose He might have had in mind--must allow for all sorts of evil intention, if not evil made manifest. The latter, of course, depends on how long God puts up with the evil intentions and the resultant manifestations. So far, He seems to have put up with quite a lot, though He once had had enough (and sent a flood), and once more will have had enough (and send fire).

I don't deny your assertion, then, that God's creation of independently-minded beings results in many potentials and possibilities, but not all. God has shown He has limits to His patience.

Thus, we can say that God has allowed evil (the kind I would semantically say God is NOT the author of), based on the outworkings of independently-minded beings' independence of mind.

The biblical context is important, not just because it is in the title of the thread, but also because of the dearth of trustworthy sources. The bible, as pointed out by [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION], has proven itself repeatedly on other topics, despite severe pressures from those that don't agree with it.

And if the bible is trustworthy on this subject, we ought to attempt to extract all of the information from it that we possibly can, since the subject has such immense importance for everyone who has ever lived or will live, including you and me. And I don't trust my own opinion any further than I can throw it. Neither should you.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. - 2 Timothy 3:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy3:16-17&version=NKJV

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. - John 14:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John14:6&version=NKJV

That's just two verses out of the Bible.

And then there's the extra-Biblical evidence for the truthfulness of the Bible.

Much of the Bible is written not in the form of a philosophy book or theology book, but a history book (consider Luke 3:1-2). The Bible presents not a mystical message and not a contradictory message of feelings and emotions that sometimes tends to contradict or some kind of eastern mysticism like Hinduism where their ideas so often contradict. The bible on the other hand is a history book claiming that actual events happened in history and that these prove the story and the message of the Bible, and therefore if these events did not happen, we should discount the message of the Bible. But on the other hand, if the events actually occurred then at the very least we should take seriously the message of the Bible.

In other words, if there's evidence that the storyes in the Bible really took place, then perhaps the moral of the story is true also.



If we can show one story of the Bible to be true, and that's all, then we can say the Bible has some truth, but on average it's not reliable, so you can take or leave it's moral message.

But there are many, many stories in the Bible, and all the greatest stories of the Bible have evidence that remains to this day showing the story to be true. If all the stories are true, then there is overwhelming evidence that the message of the bible is true.

That's the difference between the Bible and other religious books that are not historical. You don't have that test of history and evidence to apply to the other books. But even books that are based on the Bible, such as the Quran (which refers frequently to the Bible) and the Book of Mormon, which attempts to copy the style of the Bible as a history book, cannot truly hold up to scrutiny. Let's take the Book of Mormon for example, which makes historical claims that cannot be verified, and in fact have proven to be completely false. The major historical claim of the Book of Mormon is that the American Indians are descendants of the Jews, yet not their language, their genetics, their culture, their diet, their religious views, their architecture, the tools that they used, nothing supports that claim, so we take the Book of Mormon and we say, "This book is not true." It's main historical argument is not true, therefore it's message is highly suspect. The historical message is corrupt and the spiritual message is corrupt, whereas the Bible on the other hand states throughout that there is one God that we worship.

So our Bible's historical claims gives us a context in which we can begin to study, test it, look at the evidence, and to reason, as God says "Let us reason together."



There is no presupposition required. Many Christians say one has to presuppose that the Bible is true. We say no, you can just look at the evidence. Christians who say, "well, you just have to have faith," (presuppositional movement) forget that faith is the evidence of things not seen.



If a book's historical claims are inaccurate, then it is most likely unreliable when it comes to moral teachings.

On the other hand, if a book's historical claims are accurate, then its moral teachings will most likely be of value.

Yes, translations introduce inaccuracies in spelling and grammar, and since the Bible has been translated from Hebrew and Greek into English, there is the possibility of introducing errors into the text. However, even though there are errors that, in spite of the careful transcription of the texts throughout the centuries, have made it into the text, the errors are usually so minor that they don't change the meaning of the surrounding text, and the overarching message of the Bible remains the same. Or what, do you think that the God of the universe couldn't write a book and have it survive translation? (Oh, and lets not forget those oh so important original manuscripts, like the Dead Sea Scrolls, which we can use to compare between the originals and our modern texts, and see that the message is the same.



The claim that the Bible is true comes from it's historical claims.



I addressed this above.

Lots of assumption and bias in the historical claims made by traditional Christian dogma. The need for it to be a secular history is s clear sign the letter is still veiling the spiritual intent that deals with the timeless kingdom of our heritage hid in allegory that the script is wrote in, made into history by those who knew better but still fed it to the vulnerable as history.
 

JudgeRightly

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Lots of assumption and bias in the historical claims made by traditional Christian dogma. The need for it to be a secular history is s clear sign the letter is still veiling the spiritual intent that deals with the timeless kingdom of our heritage hid in allegory that the script is wrote in, made into history by those who knew better but still fed it to the vulnerable as history.

Wut...? I think I actually lost a brain cell or two reading that...
 
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