Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[glorydaz]

If you use a translation with accurate English, it says "shall never die" not "will never die"

John 11:26 KJV
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

That state of being untouched by death is fulfilled in the future. This is confirmed by both Paul and Jesus as not being fulfilled until the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 KJV
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Luke 20:35-36 KJV
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Revelation 21:4 KJV
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If we are using the scripture for our guide to doctrine, we are told that death exists (and we are subject to that death) until it is abolished by resurrection unto eternal life. "He that believeth in me shall never die" does not mean that belief grants immunity to death in the here and now, it means that those that believe shall be granted eternal life in the resurrection in the world to come.

Jesus and Paul both confirm that we are subject to death until the blessed resurrection of the dead, and at that time, we are no longer touched by death. Are these passages new to you? I don't think they should be.

The end of silly debate? I certainly hope so. Would you be willing to try intelligent respectful and thought-out debate instead?

Will versus shall? Really? Grasping at straws once again. The problem for you is that you don't understand all the uses of the word "death". Play with that one instead of "shall" and "will".

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;​

Resurrection always refers to the raising of the body. You can simply compare scripture with scripture or you can keep trying to keep them separated.

1 Cor. 15:35-38
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.​

 

[way 2 go]

Will versus shall? Really? Grasping at straws once again.

been over that subject with rosen :noway:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?89660-Is-the-doctrine-of-Eternal-Conscious-Torment-biblical-or-not&p=4737382&viewfull=1#post4737382

well you going on about the synonyms will & shall has been pointless.

Spiritual Death is what happend to Adam & Eve the day that
they ate of the tree as God told them they would die.

 

[glorydaz]

been over that subject with rosen :noway:

Rosen doesn't listen. He/she talks.

 

[way 2 go]

Rosen doesn't listen. He/she talks.

I think rosen might be a wolf in sheep's clothing

when rosen started in this thread I said he was not interested in the truth
unfortunately I was right rosen is not seeking truth just pursuing his
agenda of no ECT.

maybe up next for rosen's denial ... satan is not real he is just a metaphor .
I mean once you start denying scripture were do you stop ?

link

 

[Rosenritter]

Honestly, as far as I can tell from all biblical, Greek, and Roman accounts of Hell, 'Classical Hell' (fire and brimstone) is complete nonsense. No doubt, there is a very real Hell, but it is both commensurate to your sins and it's severity is what you deserve_ It is the place of the dead rather than the living.

Romans 6:20-23 KJV
(20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
(21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
(22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Wouldn't death then be what we would ultimately deserve, regardless of whatever lesser experiences might accompany our travel to that spot?

 

[Rosenritter]

I think rosen might be a wolf in sheep's clothing

when rosen started in this thread I said he was not interested in the truth
unfortunately I was right rosen is not seeking truth just pursuing his
agenda of no ECT.

maybe up next for rosen's denial ... satan is not real he is just a metaphor .
I mean once you start denying scripture were do you stop ?

link

Yes, that's right. Within a day of first entry into the board you introduced yourself, and said that you had once had your mind concerning Mid-Acts Dispensationism. I had replied saying that I didn't think any less of such a person that changed their mind based on evidence. Here's the chain:

Way 2 Go:

2. rare to see anybody change their mind
about anything on this forum

I will admit when I first joined I was against
Mid Acts Dispensation
and have joined them now

Rosenritter:

I doesn't make a person any less in my eyes if they change their mind from one position to another after carefully considering persuasive evidence. Have you considered a possibility that perhaps you aren't using the right arguments or presenting the right evidence? I'll use the last post as an example.

By the way, I wouldn't label someone as "obtuse." It's not an effective persuasive technique, and saying something like that actually says that you're not trying to persuade that person. If you're not actually trying to be persuasive, why should that person trust you?

Way 2 Go:

so truth does not matter , good to know from the start

Rosenritter

The irony is that I was referring to you before, when I said that I didn't hold a person as being any less if they were persuaded after carefully considering evidence.

Way 2 Go:

to me that still sounds like truth does not matter to you

Rosenritter:

You had said that you had changed positions at one point... I had assumed that you used careful consideration.absolutely still looking for someone to prove Mid Acts Dispensation wrong.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lical-or-not&p=4729835&viewfull=1#post4729835

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lical-or-not&p=4730676&viewfull=1#post4730676



Yes, you right that you started off with accusation, and ironically were accusing me for giving you credit that you may have considered evidence before making your change in conclusion. You seem to be argumentative, accusatory, and contentious by nature. Incidentally, I did prove to the thread owner that he did believe in Eternal Conscious Torment, something that you or others had failed to do the entire time previous.

It turned out that he was under that belief because of a mistaken memory of scripture, but you with your "call the enemy obtuse" strategy hadn't managed to achieve any sort of resolution thus far.

 

[Rosenritter]

maybe up next for rosen's denial ... satan is not real he is just a metaphor .
I mean once you start denying scripture were do you stop ?

link

You obviously don't read much before making accusations. Since we are referring back to the beginning of when I entered this thread, you might remember that I asked who was participating, and then engaged conversation with Timotheos, specifically as to the fate of the devil in hell fire, and the topic was on the prophesies off literal destruction of this fallen angel called the Devil, and Satan.

"Satan is not real he is just a metaphor?" What's the words for someone that knowingly speaks false about someone for the sake of accusation? Unless you are suffering from severe memory loss, you, Way 2 Go, are a liar and false accuser. Please, give me a reason to believe why this is not the case in your account.

 

[way 2 go]

double post deleted

 

[way 2 go]

Yes, that's right. Within a day of first entry into the board you introduced yourself, and said that you had once had your mind concerning Mid-Acts Dispensationism. I had replied saying that I didn't think any less of such a person that changed their mind based on evidence.

my point , a good argument does not surpass truth

I believe Mid-Acts Dispensation because it is true.

Yes, you right that you started off with accusation, and ironically were accusing me for giving you credit that you may have considered evidence before making your change in conclusion. You seem to be argumentative, accusatory, and contentious by nature.

since it is about truth , lets recap

Rosenritter you called Jesus a liar , Samuel a demon , Moses and Elijah not real.

Rosenritter you say that because you understand that if the spirit lives on apart from the body
then ECT is true.



Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’


1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”


Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.
Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

 

[glorydaz]

I think rosen might be a wolf in sheep's clothing

when rosen started in this thread I said he was not interested in the truth
unfortunately I was right rosen is not seeking truth just pursuing his
agenda of no ECT.

maybe up next for rosen's denial ... satan is not real he is just a metaphor .
I mean once you start denying scripture were do you stop ?

link

Yep :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

You obviously don't read much before making accusations. Since we are referring back to the beginning of when I entered this thread, you might remember that I asked who was participating, and then engaged conversation with Timotheos, specifically as to the fate of the devil in hell fire, and the topic was on the prophesies off literal destruction of this fallen angel called the Devil, and Satan.

"Satan is not real he is just a metaphor?" What's the words for someone that knowingly speaks false about someone for the sake of accusation? Unless you are suffering from severe memory loss, you, Way 2 Go, are a liar and false accuser. Please, give me a reason to believe why this is not the case in your account.

Way 2 go has seen your MO. Why the feigned outrage?

 

[Rosenritter]

"These careless attacks"....stating that you can't explain something you clearly can't?

I can see you are treating others much worse than they treat you. Are you that blind to your own words?

You're such a fruitcake. Oh wait, those are your words. I should have put quotes about it so that it wouldn't seem like my response. My arguments to you have been saying that "If you believe as you say you believe, this would be the natural consequence..." and asking for an explanation, and receiving a ton of hatred railed back at me in return. Would you like an inventory of personal attacks over the past week? From where they came and upon whom they were directed?

I am all for boards claiming to be about Christian behavior and doctrine actually being in line with Christian behavior and doctrine. In their current state, attempting to engage here seems more like an exercise in "love your enemies, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you." For a long long time now, your responses (and others) hasn't been of the logical reasoned sort, but rather personal attacks, founded on emotion and illogic.

For example, someone says "You can't even explain the difference" ... and I respond by explaining the difference. You were unable to show why the explanation is flawed or unsatisfactory, so you simply retort "stating that you can't explain something you clearly can't?" Logical? No. Supported? No. Relying on hanging a gang mentality at your back? Seems so.

I can see you are treating others much worse than they treat you. Are you that blind to your own words?

If I reply to something you have said and say you are wrong, or mistaken, or that your answer when carried to its logical conclusion yields contradictory results, do I use unfounded "because I say so" statements like that, or do I provide logic or reasons with an opportunity for you to address them?

See, now here is where I give you an opportunity to respond with contrary evidence. Or perhaps a declaration of good intent and a wish for mutual honorable correspondence. Where do you want this to go? If judging by past behavior, I'm guessing that you'll opt for more personal attacks and/or antagonism. I'd really like to be wrong on this though.

 

[Rosenritter]

Will versus shall? Really? Grasping at straws once again. The problem for you is that you don't understand all the uses of the word "death". Play with that one instead of "shall" and "will".

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;​

Resurrection always refers to the raising of the body. You can simply compare scripture with scripture or you can keep trying to keep them separated.

1 Cor. 15:35-38
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.​

Of course resurrection refers to bodily resurrection. Have you seen this contested anywhere, by anyone? It sounds like you may be the one grasping at straw men. But as to your claim that "resurrection always refers to the raising of the body" that claim is easily disproved in scripture. Same book of Colossians, earlier chapter:

Colossians 2:12-13 KJV
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Just as "buried with him" is used in symbolic metaphor, the following "risen with him" is also in the same symbolic metaphor. That risen isn't a literal bodily resurrection, it's a metaphor which only has meaning because it refers to a literal bodily resurrection.

At this point I'm not sure what type of point you are trying to make, so if you wish to continue please state clearly what it is you wish to prove, and then ask whether there is agreement or disagreement before choosing to attack a position of your choosing?

 

[glorydaz]

You're such a fruitcake. Oh wait, those are your words. I should have put quotes about it so that it wouldn't seem like my response. My arguments to you have been saying that "If you believe as you say you believe, this would be the natural consequence..." and asking for an explanation, and receiving a ton of hatred railed back at me in return. Would you like an inventory of personal attacks over the past week? From where they came and upon whom they were directed?

Paranoia will destroy ya. :chuckle:

I can't work up a good mad over people like you, Rosie. A bit of annoyance at best.

I am all for boards claiming to be about Christian behavior and doctrine actually being in line with Christian behavior and doctrine. In their current state, attempting to engage here seems more like an exercise in "love your enemies, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you." For a long long time now, your responses (and others) hasn't been of the logical reasoned sort, but rather personal attacks, founded on emotion and illogic.

Ah, the old "Christian behaviour" finger pointing. :chuckle:

For example, someone says "You can't even explain the difference" ... and I respond by explaining the difference. You were unable to show why the explanation is flawed or unsatisfactory, so you simply retort "stating that you can't explain something you clearly can't?" Logical? No. Supported? No. Relying on hanging a gang mentality at your back? Seems so.

And how old are you claiming to be? :chew:

If I reply to something you have said and say you are wrong, or mistaken, or that your answer when carried to its logical conclusion yields contradictory results, do I use unfounded "because I say so" statements like that, or do I provide logic or reasons with an opportunity for you to address them?

Can you quote me saying "Because I say so"? :chew:

See, now here is where I give you an opportunity to respond with contrary evidence. Or perhaps a declaration of good intent and a wish for mutual honorable correspondence. Where do you want this to go? If judging by past behavior, I'm guessing that you'll opt for more personal attacks and/or antagonism. I'd really like to be wrong on this though.

My intent is always good. It's your intent that concerns me. You claim one thing and proceed to go about your merry way. I've learned that it is not always possible to communicate with certain people. God's unTruth is one, Meshak is another, Kingdom Rose is another, and you have managed to join that group. Congrats to you.

 

[glorydaz]

It sounds like you may be the one grasping at straw men.

You should just toss that out of your vocabulary. It's like the boy who cried wolf.

 

[Rosenritter]

my point , a good argument does not surpass truth

I believe Mid-Acts Dispensation because it is true.

I have seen quite a bit of absurdity strutted around in the name of Mid-Acts Dispensationism, such as commands to love one another and to bridle our tongues are not applicable to "us" because "That was written to the JEWS." It usually goes hand in hand with a type of head-headed bullish mentality that thinks it is their right to bully their way through arguments. So far you fit that mold.

Rosenritter you called Jesus a liar ,

Falsehood. You, Way 2 Go, are a liar. While it is true that you have made such an accusation over and over, you have never backed it up, again, which is evidence that you are a liar and false accuser.

Samuel a demon

Yes, I have called a Samuel who rose as a spirit from the earth at the bidding of a witch a devil. Nor am I alone in this assessment, as any honest survey would inform you, including well-recognized men of the Reformation. The theological world is of split opinion on this point. I have asked for reasons why one should interpret this phantasm as being the genuine man, and have received none from you.

Moses and Elijah not real.

Which Moses and which Elijah, Way 2 Go? Do you mean from the vision? That Jesus himself said was a vision?

Matthew 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Ah, but you say it was not a vision? It would seem you are calling Jesus the liar. You plainly don't believe what he says that he offers for explanation for what they saw.

Rosenritter you say that because you understand that if the spirit lives on apart from the body then ECT is true.

I would be most interested to see where I have said that. Do you have a post number? Or perhaps a quote from an essay I once wrote? I feel that such is linked, but I know that the two are often separated, so I doubt that I would have made such a statement knowing that there would be some who could make a case otherwise. Case in point, Evil Eye is one that believes against Eternal Conscious Torment while believing that the dead exists as ghosts.

What I might have said is that "Eternal Conscious Torment" depends on the dead not being dead, but surely you're smart enough to see that does not necessitate the reverse that you just claimed. Or maybe you're not? Show the quote that prompted that remark, please.

Way 2 Go, you have met the criteria of a liar and false accuser. You do not seem interested in truth. especially when such would interfere with your ability to attack someone.

Here is where I will add that regardless of history... I am more interested that future behavior is above board. Civil, honest, reasoned. If I were a gambling man, I'd gamble against that on you. Help me lose that bet.

 

[rstrats]

Over 7000 posts and the fact still remains that there is no scripture that says that anyone - other than the devil, as the KJV has it - will suffer a fate of eternal conscious torment.

 

[Rosenritter]

Over 7000 posts and the fact still remains that there is no scripture that says that anyone - other than the devil, as the KJV has it - will suffer a fate of eternal conscious torment.

If by "eternal" you mean "for ever and ever until he is burnt up and destroyed" as prophesied in Isaiah and Ezekiel then we have agreement.

Spoiler

Ezekiel 28:12-19 KJV(12) Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
(13) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Spoiler

Isaiah 14:4-23 KJV(4) That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
(5) The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
(6) He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
(7) The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
(8) Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
(9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
(11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
(14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
(15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
(16) They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
(17) That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
(18) All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
(19) But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
(20) Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
(21) Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
(22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
(23) I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

Spoiler

Revelation 20:10 KJV(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Do these all seem to point to the same event?

 

[Rosenritter]

You should just toss that out of your vocabulary. It's like the boy who cried wolf.

Glory, when you continue to make up arguments and assign them to your opponents, when they themselves have not made the argument, then attack that argument because it seems easy for you to do so, THAT is the definition of "straw man."

 

[glorydaz]

It usually goes hand in hand with a type of head-headed bullish mentality that thinks it is their right to bully their way through arguments. So far you fit that mold.

He fits that mold? :rotfl:


Incredible