Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

Glory wins ANOTHER debate with scripture !!!

Not exactly Patrick. We never disagreed that there is a spirit and matter component to man. The actual subject of debate is whether any conscious portion of man survives death. For example, thought and emotions; including love, hatred, the ability to recognize if one is even alive, whether one can praise God.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


The reply of "he is talking only about our body" hasn't persuaded me, as "our body" doesn't love, or hate, or have self-awareness in the first place.

Nor have I been persuaded that the apparition of Samuel proves that the dead are conscious after death, for a variety of reasons that I share with Martin Luther, John Calvin, and King James. Adding to this that it's good common Christian sense not to trust anything that a medium tries to summon, and even if we believed the words of this apparition, it doesn't say that it was conscious before its summoning.

 

[glorydaz]

A couple observations:

1) Spirit can mean "life force" or it can mean "Holy spirit" or it can generally assess our emotions and ranges of things in between. It's a broad word.

Yep, including the spirit of man. Context is everything.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.​

2) I acknowledge that all life has physical and spiritual components, including mankind. I do not agree that we exist without a body. Yes, as we speak of men, the body without the spirit is dead, but it does NOT logically follow that the spirit of man is alive without a body.

Was Jesus a man when He walked this earth? Was His spirit alive without His body? Angels are spirits with no body. Are they alive?

You have already stated the scriptural authority for your understanding. Specifically, that the seance performed by the witch of Endor summoned something that called itself Samuel, and that the divination performed successfully predicted Saul's death.

And, of course Samuel was never referred to as a spirit in the entire chapter. In fact the seeress was shocked when she saw Samuel. She didn't expect he would actually appear. They never really do. Samuel had pretended to be a seer before in Saul's past, so Saul was susceptible.

1 Sam. 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.​

I base my understanding on other parts of scripture, including where God describes the meaning of death to Adam as dissolution to dust, that Solomon tells us that death is alike for both man and beast, that Job says that the dead are still and trouble no longer, that David says that the dead cannot praise God and no longer have any being, and so on and so forth. That, and I can scarcely understand how "we of all men would be most miserable" if there were no resurrection of the dead, if we were alive and happy in spirit in Paradise or some other such place upon death.

The body returns to the dust....it is but our tent. It's hard to address all those texts, especially when you have in mind that death refers to all of man, and not just his body. The body in the grave knows nothing (tents know nothing). Our body can't think for itself.

3) It doesn't seem that you are using "Triune" the same way that Bright Raven uses "Triune." Bright Raven (or at least his website that he gave to represent his belief) would say that one part couldn't exist without the others, and that each part would recognize the other as not itself, thus using a different pronoun. Assuming that you are Trinitarian, I'm sensing some problems here if you're going to attempt to say that "man is Triune as God is Triune, made in his Triune image:"

God didn't create us as mini-gods. We can't even come close to the greatness of God. But the godhead is composed of Father, Son, and Spirit. Man is composed of Soul, Body, and Spirit.

a) Do you agree with that Trinity definition that the body cannot exist without soul and spirit, the soul cannot exist without spirit and body, and the spirit cannot exist without body and soul?
b) Does the body speak of the spirit using a different pronoun, or vice versa? Are these self-aware parts?

The trinity definition is speaking of God. Man is not spirit, we have a spirit. It's a stretch to compare man to God in any way, but God did say we are made in his image. We can know, but we are not all knowing. We can only be in one place at a time and God is everywhere at the same time. Surely you have to understand that a triune man is not the same as our triune God.

Man's soul is our individuality...who we are....our emotions, our thoughts, etc. Our spirit is the inner man that communes with the Spirit of God. Our soul and spirit are inseparable...both unseen hidden inside our body. When we put off this tent (body), we move on. In the same way, when God became flesh and dwelt among us, He went to the cross (His body died) and was buried. He did not cease to exist. Yes, we are made in the image of God.

4) Yes, you have one passage that speaks of body and soul and spirit (1 Thess 5:23) but you also have another passage where Jesus speaks of the man as consisting of heart, soul, mind, and strength (Mark 12:30). So depending on whether you choose one, or the other, or how you choose to interpret overlap, that's as many as three, four, five, six, or seven different parts.

So I'm suggesting that maybe that isn't an ironclad model.

No, those are all functions of man (strength-body or soul), heart (inner man/soul or spirit, mind (inner man -soul or spirit) all depending on the context and how it's being used.

There are so many verses that address these aspects of man....a soul can weep (so can the body). Context is everything.)

 

[way 2 go]

Yes it can, when it 'aion' or its derivative is used in context towards 'God' himself or something 'divine', but when just describing a dispensation or period of time...it simply infers an 'age' (a period of time) and does not necessarily mean 'eternal', 'everlasting', or 'unending'.

what causes the end if there is no entropy ?

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


(entropy a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder)

 

[Rosenritter]

Was Jesus a man when He walked this earth? Was His spirit alive without His body? Angels are spirits with no body. Are they alive?

1. Rhetorical.
2. No, being found in fashion as a man means that he lived through a physical body.
3. False. Angels are not spirits with no body.
4. Yes, angels are alive.

Let's back up to your statement three. Why did you say that angels are spirits with no body? Here's what we are told in the New Testament:

1) In the resurrection of life, we shall be as the angels in heaven (Luke 20:35)
2) In the resurrection of life, we shall be changed, that our physical body shall be changed to a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:38-46)
3) That Christ was raised with that spiritual body (1 Cor 15:46)

1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Just because you aren't able to see angels under normal circumstances, and just because they are invisible, doesn't mean that they have no body.

And, of course Samuel was never referred to as a spirit in the entire chapter. In fact the seeress was shocked when she saw Samuel. She didn't expect he would actually appear. They never really do. Samuel had pretended to be a seer before in Saul's past, so Saul was susceptible.

1 Sam. 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.​

1. Where did you get the idea that phantasms don't ever appear at seances and the like? "They never really do?"

2. Glory, can you show me why you are saying that "Samuel had pretended to be a seer before?" Seriously, without being argumentative, either I've forgotten something or you are misunderstanding something, but I really don't know what you mean here. In one sense Samuel always was a seer (and no need to pretend) but in the other sense he was never a medium or necromancer in the sense of the witch of Endor.

The body returns to the dust....it is but our tent. It's hard to address all those texts, especially when you have in mind that death refers to all of man, and not just his body. The body in the grave knows nothing (tents know nothing). Our body can't think for itself.

Here, Glory, is where your statement proves too much. If our body does not think for itself, and does not feel love, hatred, envy, or have knowledge (such as "I think therefore I am") then your claim that these passages only refer to the body itself is groundless. The only reason to mention these attributes is if indeed these are the things being referred to.

Or in other words, maybe the scripture actually DOES mean what it sounds like it's saying!

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

All of those things mentioned, love, hatred, envy, and knowledge are as you acknowledged, things that are the center of our consciousness, not that are possessed by a physical tabernacle of dust. Yet we are told that these things utterly perish with our death.

God didn't create us as mini-gods. We can't even come close to the greatness of God. But the godhead is composed of Father, Son, and Spirit. Man is composed of Soul, Body, and Spirit.

First, you are taking a model of God that assigns three persons, and instead applying it to the makeup of man that has not three persons, but rather three ingredients. Even if one were to accept your first premise, the second does not necessarily follow.

Second, the bible doesn't state that we are composed of "soul, body, and spirit" but rather uses "soul" as the "whole" of man. When there is a need to refer to ourselves in an aspect that does not emphasize wholeness, then it might use terms like "mind" "spirit" "strength" "blood" "body" and so forth. Don't get carried away trying to hammer square pegs into round souls.

The trinity definition is speaking of God. Man is not spirit, we have a spirit. It's a stretch to compare man to God in any way, but God did say we are made in his image. We can know, but we are not all knowing. We can only be in one place at a time and God is everywhere at the same time. Surely you have to understand that a triune man is not the same as our triune God.

Agreed that man has spirit, but in more than one way. First is the spirit that I was mentioning earlier, when God breathes his spirit into us, as the scripture mentions in that fashion a few times. This is life on loan for God. It is not us, but it makes it possible for us to live, for everything that has life to live. Second, is as you were using passages for, that the concept of the "essence of our thoughts" which is closer in meaning to mind or heart. This might be described as us, but it is not something that has life in itself, nor does it have any application without body.

Man's soul is our individuality...who we are....our emotions, our thoughts, etc. Our spirit is the inner man that communes with the Spirit of God. Our soul and spirit are inseparable...both unseen hidden inside our body. When we put off this tent (body), we move on. In the same way, when God became flesh and dwelt among us, He went to the cross (His body died) and was buried. He did not cease to exist. Yes, we are made in the image of God.

Spirit and soul aren't inseparable. Hebrews 4:12, "dividing asunder of soul and spirit" gives us indication that these are separable. Further evidence can be shown from the description of Christ's death. "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" and yet Peter describes the soul (the body) of Jesus as not being left in hell (the tomb.)

Luke 23:46 KJV
(46) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 2:29-32 KJV
(29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
(30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

There are so many verses that address these aspects of man....a soul can weep (so can the body). Context is everything.)

"Soul" is the whole man. Thus Job 30:25, "Did not I weep .... was not my soul grieved..." Jer 13:17, "my soul shall weep..." right parallel with "mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears..." and so forth. This isn't a metaphysical ingredient, it's a generalization for the person in the indivisible sense.

Joshua 10:35 KJV
(35) And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

Slay the living soul and you are left with a dead body, God takes back the life that is his, and regardless of whether "spirit of man" is a generalization or something that has a substance on a spiritual realm, God can restore us back to operational order by resurrection.

We are promised eternal life by resurrection, not by any other method. We are not conscious while dead, or else why would Paul say that if there were no resurrection, then he fighting wild beasts was in vain, and it would be better to eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die?

1 Corinthians 15:16-19 KJV
(16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
(18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
(19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:29-32 KJV
(29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
(30) And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
(31) I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
(32) If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Paul seems pretty adamant that without the resurrection we would be without hope, and that the dead would be forever perished, that there would be no other consequences to our actions otherwise.

 

[glorydaz]

1. Rhetorical.
2. No, being found in fashion as a man means that he lived through a physical body.
3. False. Angels are not spirits with no body.
4. Yes, angels are alive.

Let's back up to your statement three. Why did you say that angels are spirits with no body? Here's what we are told in the New Testament:

1) In the resurrection of life, we shall be as the angels in heaven (Luke 20:35)
2) In the resurrection of life, we shall be changed, that our physical body shall be changed to a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:38-46)
3) That Christ was raised with that spiritual body (1 Cor 15:46)

1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Just because you aren't able to see angels under normal circumstances, and just because they are invisible, doesn't mean that they have no body.

Oh my. Angels are spirit beings....they have no flesh and blood bodies as we do. Therefore they will not have a resurrected spiritual body as we do. Your quote from Luke doesn't say they have or will ever have a body. It simply says we will be like the angels in that we will not die, and will not marry or be given in marriage.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory, can you show me why you are saying that "Samuel had pretended to be a seer before?" Seriously, without being argumentative, either I've forgotten something or you are misunderstanding something, but I really don't know what you mean here. In one sense Samuel always was a seer (and no need to pretend) but in the other sense he was never a medium or necromancer in the sense of the witch of Endor.

Of course Samuel was given his knowledge from the Lord, but Saul was only looking for a "seer" to help them find their donkeys. He wasn't looking for a Prophet, which is what Samuel actually was. (Not every seer is a prophet.) So, Samuel, knowing Saul wasn't interested in the Lord's plan for him...rather where his donkeys were, got Saul to go with him and hear him out.

1 Samuel 9:18 Then Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, where the seer's house is.

1 Samuel 9:19 And Samuel answered Saul, and said, I am the seer: go up before me unto the high place; for ye shall eat with me to day, and to morrow I will let thee go, and will tell thee all that is in thine heart.​

Now, so far, you seem to be out to be argumentative rather than anything else, but I'll go ahead and see what the rest of your LONG post is saying.

 

[glorydaz]

The body returns to the dust....it is but our tent. It's hard to address all those texts, especially when you have in mind that death refers to all of man, and not just his body. The body in the grave knows nothing (tents know nothing). Our body can't think for itself.

Here, Glory, is where your statement proves too much. If our body does not think for itself, and does not feel love, hatred, envy, or have knowledge (such as "I think therefore I am") then your claim that these passages only refer to the body itself is groundless.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

​

The only reason to mention these attributes is if indeed these are the things being referred to.

Or in other words, maybe the scripture actually DOES mean what it sounds like it's saying!

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

All of those things mentioned, love, hatred, envy, and knowledge are as you acknowledged, things that are the center of our consciousness, not that are possessed by a physical tabernacle of dust. Yet we are told that these things utterly perish with our death.

There is no more reward for those who have gone to the grave. They are no longer walking among the living and are soon forgotten. They no longer are concerned with the things of this world...all those petty concerns are no longer important to them. It's the same way when you move to another country. Those things you left behind are no longer a part of what you're doing in the here and now.

You seem to forget that Ecclesiastes is a book of man's arguments...all that is done under the sun. Solomon is not giving a lesson on the afterlife. You can tell by what he says that those who have died are not remembered, all they worked for is for naught, all those things that seemed so important are brought into perspective at death. So when you read such texts, you have to be careful to avoid reading your doctrine into what is said. You see his perspective here....it's better to have never been born, etc. Does that sound like it's coming from man's perspective instead of God's? You know it does.

Ecclesiastes 4:1-4
So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter. Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun. Again, I considered all travail, and every right work, that for this a man is envied of his neighbour. This is also vanity and vexation of spirit.​

 

[freelight]

Universal Recreation........

Universal Recreation........

what causes the end if there is no entropy ?

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


(entropy a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder)

Remember, aion refers to and age, period of time. Already shared on matt. 25:46, the conditions spoken of there are 'age-enduring'....not everlasting. A key issue here is understanding 'aion' and its adjectival forms.

I dont follow your introduction of 'entropy' in the equation here (there are different nuances of meaning for the term), since systems are born, die and are reborn in the process of creative evolution; such is the way of the universal process. There is integration and disintegration, as new worlds are created, sustained and dissolved, making way for new dispensations. Entropy conceptually is only one feature of evolution, but life is continually recreational and regenerative.

We would also remind you that ECT is insanity, it accomplishes nothing, violates ethics, principle and moral value, fosters cruelty beyond reason and defames the character of God among other things.

Renderings of judgment, and their adjudication are commensurate with the crimes or sins committed, measure for measure and endure for a period of time appropriate to universal law, in equity and karmic balance. They are dispensational (equally compensational), not eternally enduring.

Perfect justice and mercy is governed by divine love and wisdom...always for the highest good for the individual and the whole...while all compensations are ruled by universal law.

 

[Rosenritter]

Oh my. Angels are spirit beings....they have no flesh and blood bodies as we do. Therefore they will not have a resurrected spiritual body as we do. Your quote from Luke doesn't say they have or will ever have a body. It simply says we will be like the angels in that we will not die, and will not marry or be given in marriage.

Perhaps you could show me any place that has an affirmative statement that says that angels have no spiritual body? Given that we are told that in the resurrection we shall be like unto the angels, that does indicate that angels possess spiritual bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:38-40 KJV
(38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
(39) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
(40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Unless you are suggesting that we should accept your presumption as gospel, we really would need a more concrete statement to indicate that angels do not possess bodies of spirit.

 

[Rosenritter]

Of course Samuel was given his knowledge from the Lord, but Saul was only looking for a "seer" to help them find their donkeys. He wasn't looking for a Prophet, which is what Samuel actually was. (Not every seer is a prophet.) So, Samuel, knowing Saul wasn't interested in the Lord's plan for him...rather where his donkeys were, got Saul to go with him and hear him out.

1 Samuel 9:18 Then Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, where the seer's house is.

1 Samuel 9:19 And Samuel answered Saul, and said, I am the seer: go up before me unto the high place; for ye shall eat with me to day, and to morrow I will let thee go, and will tell thee all that is in thine heart.​

Now, so far, you seem to be out to be argumentative rather than anything else, but I'll go ahead and see what the rest of your LONG post is saying.

1 Samuel 9:9 KJV
(9) (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)

I think you got that backwards Glory. Nine verses prior it tells us that prophet and seer are interchangeable in this context, excepting that "seer" had the connotation of prophet of God, whereas we do read about false prophets or prophets of other gods.

At least now I understand your reference, but Saul wasn't looking for a false prophet or a witch or a medium or necromancy or anything of that sort back then. His seeking for a prophet of God then shouldn't have been anything that would set him up to fall for necromancy later.

By the way, Tambora and Way 2 Go, good work putting "likes" on Glory's post there. You could have helped her out with verse 9 too you know. Or do you just automatically "like" anyone who sides against me?

 

[Rosenritter]

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
​

Please explain how that passage (above) is supposed to demonstrate that the body has emotions and independent thought from our "spirit" so that Ecclesiastes 9:5 could possibly be said to support your allegation that it was referring to merely "our body?"

​

Galatians 5:17 KJV
(17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

You do understand that "the Spirit" in that passage means "the Spirit" as in God, right? "The flesh" is us, "the Spirit" is God. This doesn't support your allegation that our physical body has love, hatred, envy, and knowledge, as compared to (or differing from) our "spirit." OUR spirit, not THE Spirit, the Creator of all things..

There is no more reward for those who have gone to the grave. They are no longer walking among the living and are soon forgotten. They no longer are concerned with the things of this world...all those petty concerns are no longer important to them. It's the same way when you move to another country. Those things you left behind are no longer a part of what you're doing in the here and now.

Correct so far.

You seem to forget that Ecclesiastes is a book of man's arguments...all that is done under the sun.

Ah, Lon, this is one of those examples I meant, of attempting to nullify whole books of the Bible to protect a pet doctrine.

Solomon is not giving a lesson on the afterlife. You can tell by what he says that those who have died are not remembered, all they worked for is for naught, all those things that seemed so important are brought into perspective at death. So when you read such texts, you have to be careful to avoid reading your doctrine into what is said. You see his perspective here....it's better to have never been born, etc. Does that sound like it's coming from man's perspective instead of God's? You know it does.

Ecclesiastes 4:1-4
So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter. Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun. Again, I considered all travail, and every right work, that for this a man is envied of his neighbour. This is also vanity and vexation of spirit.​

I would say that you are mistaken, because you weren't reading Solomon very carefully. This is not a collection of "man's arguments" and of course there is no "lesson of the afterlife" as you understand it, because THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT. Solomon does speak of what is to come, and you would see that if you read all the way through the end, as scripture is meant to be read, in context, to the end.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
(13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
(14) For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

You missed the whole point of Ecclesiastes because you were more concerned with jettisoning the book to protect "living while dead."

You see his perspective here....it's better to have never been born, etc. Does that sound like it's coming from man's perspective instead of God's? You know it does.

Mark 14:21 KJV
(21) The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Glory, I think I'll stick with "Jesus had the perspective of God" on this one. If you attempt to gut Solomon on this one, who was given his wisdom directly from God himself, then you also attack Jesus.

1 Kings 4:29 KJV(29) And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.

Look here Glory. Let's pretend for a brief moment that you're wrong here. If so, if you were wrong on this one matter, that the dead indeed were dead and didn't even know that they were dead, would this have any terrible consequence? Would those raised by Christ in that blessed resurrection be any less alive for ever more? Would they have missed anything worth missing, being raised at Christ's return, at the finale of all finales that this earth has ever seen, missing everything evil and mournful to be observed in between?

Isaiah 57:1 KJV
(1) The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.


Together, all together, not a tiny trickle, but with a shout, with a trumpet, that the saints of old and their children reunited all in one accord, that they without us should not be made perfect?

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Pretend for a moment that I might be right. Would that be a bad thing? Does it have any terrible hidden price to pay that could not be borne?

 

[glorydaz]

Perhaps you could show me any place that has an affirmative statement that says that angels have no spiritual body? Given that we are told that in the resurrection we shall be like unto the angels, that does indicate that angels possess spiritual bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:38-40 KJV
(38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
(39) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
(40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Unless you are suggesting that we should accept your presumption as gospel, we really would need a more concrete statement to indicate that angels do not possess bodies of spirit.

First you imply angels will have resurrected bodies, which is what I was refuting, seeing as how they never had flesh and blood bodies that needed to be resurrected.


Here are the "celestial bodies".

1 Cor. 15:40-41
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.​

 

[Rosenritter]

First you imply angels will have resurrected bodies, which is what I was refuting, seeing as how they never had flesh and blood bodies that needed to be resurrected.

Here are the "celestial bodies".

1 Cor. 15:40-41
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.​

No, angels do not have "resurrected bodies" any more than God in heaven had a "resurrected body" in the days of Moses. It says we shall be changed, and that we shall be as the angels, and that our bodies are changed to be spiritual bodies.

Just because some bodies are resurrected and then changed to spiritual bodies, does not mean that there was no such thing as a spiritual body before that point, or that God or angels do not possess bodies of spirit. If you have a passage that says that God or angels do not have bodies (not fleshly bodies, and yes I know that angels have been in flesh before) then that's what I would look for.

Exodus 33:20-23 KJV
(20) And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
(21) And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
(22) And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
(23) And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Now I recognize that this passage could also be analogy, but here God does speak to Moses as if he does have a face, or at least some type of form that would slay Moses were he to attempt to fully behold it.

This cannot be the same as when he was earlier speaking to Moses in physical form, face to face, as one would a friend. That would be a physical manifestation of God in the flesh, not his true spiritual body.

Exodus 33:11 KJV
(11) And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

The indications we are given is that beings of spirit do have bodies of spirit. The comparison between the resurrected saints and the angels indicates that, Paul says that our resurrected form is a spiritual body. Given the lack of anything to the contrary, and the indication towards that angels have spiritual bodies, I think I have a valid objection when you use a statement like "Angels are spirits and have no bodies" as support for "Humans have spirits which are conscious without bodies."

 

[glorydaz]

1 Samuel 9:9 KJV
(9) (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)

I think you got that backwards Glory. Nine verses prior it tells us that prophet and seer are interchangeable in this context, excepting that "seer" had the connotation of prophet of God, whereas we do read about false prophets or prophets of other gods.

At least now I understand your reference, but Saul wasn't looking for a false prophet or a witch or a medium or necromancy or anything of that sort back then. His seeking for a prophet of God then shouldn't have been anything that would set him up to fall for necromancy later.

Yeah, I read the entire chapter. You may have gone back, but you clearly didn't read what was written. I already said not all seers were prophets, but all prophets were seers, didn't I? I figured I'd made that clear.

Saul was not seeking a Godly Prophet. He was seeking a seer who could help him find his missing donkeys. You should have read it....it's very important to the story.

1 Sam. 9:3 And the ***** of Kish Saul's father were lost. And Kish said to Saul his son, Take now one of the servants with thee, and arise, go seek the *****. And he passed through mount Ephraim, and passed through the land of Shalisha, but they found them not: then they passed through the land of Shalim, and there they were not: and he passed through the land of the Benjamites, but they found them not. And when they were come to the land of Zuph, Saul said to his servant that was with him, Come, and let us return; lest my father leave caring for the *****, and take thought for us. And he said unto him, Behold now, there is in this city a man of God, and he is an honourable man; all that he saith cometh surely to pass: now let us go thither; peradventure he can shew us our way that we should go. Then said Saul to his servant, But, behold, if we go, what shall we bring the man? for the bread is spent in our vessels, and there is not a present to bring to the man of God: what have we? And the servant answered Saul again, and said, Behold, I have here at hand the fourth part of a shekel of silver: that will I give to the man of God, to tell us our way. (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.) 10 Then said Saul to his servant, Well said; come, let us go. So they went unto the city where the man of God was. 11 And as they went up the hill to the city, they found young maidens going out to draw water, and said unto them, Is the seer here?

18 Then Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, where the seer's house is. 19 And Samuel answered Saul, and said, I am the seer: go up before me unto the high place; for ye shall eat with me to day, and to morrow I will let thee go, and will tell thee all that is in thine heart.20 And as for thine ***** that were lost three days ago, set not thy mind on them; for they are found. And on whom is all the desire of Israel? Is it not on thee, and on all thy father's house? 21 And Saul answered and said, Am not I a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin? wherefore then speakest thou so to me?​

By the way, Tambora and Way 2 Go, good work putting "likes" on Glory's post there. You could have helped her out with verse 9 too you know. Or do you just "like" anyone who argues against me?

Why are some of you folks So focused on who thanks who? We basically support those who are saying something we agree with. Does that awaken your green eyed monster?

 

[patrick jane]

Why are some of you folks So focused on who thanks who? We basically support those who are saying something we agree with. Does that awaken your green eyed monster?

Good study on that chapter glory. Remember how I was obsessed with likes and reps? :chuckle: I gave that up

 

[glorydaz]

Please explain how that passage (above) is supposed to demonstrate that the body has emotions and independent thought from our "spirit" so that Ecclesiastes 9:5 could possibly be said to support your allegation that it was referring to merely "our body?"

It shows clearly that man is more than just a body. The body can run out of energy and fall asleep, even though the spirit of man (inner man, thoughts, plans, etc) wants to stay awake and alert. Ecc. 9:5 and a verse right after it that should have cleared it up for you. Try reading it again.

You do understand that "the Spirit" in that passage means "the Spirit" as in God, right? "The flesh" is us, "the Spirit" is God. This doesn't support your allegation that our physical body has love, hatred, envy, and knowledge, as compared to (or differing from) our "spirit." OUR spirit, not THE Spirit, the Creator of all things..

You do understand that the Spirit of God doesn't war against our flesh without the cooperation of the spirit of man, don't you? Proving that man is more than just a body of flesh.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.​

The Spirit of God must commune with the spirit of man which is why there is a war between the flesh and the spirit. That same flesh that is weak while the spirit (of man) is willing, is in view here. What? Do you think man, alone, would put off the lusts of the flesh...hatred, envy, etc.?

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.​

Ah, Lon, this is one of those examples I meant, of attempting to nullify whole books of the Bible to protect a pet doctrine.

Calling on Lon won't help you. Your lie that I'm nullifying the book of Ecclesiastes is as ignorant as saying that we shouldn't understand the Law of Moses was given to the Jews. If you can't figure out that Solomon was not endorsing "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you die", but was speaking of what men argue. ie. 'Might as well do such and such 'cause we'll be dead soon enough.' It's a wonderful book, but it is what it is....not what you want it to be when you need it to form some pet doctrine of YOURS.

Solomon also tells us this....there is a spirit of man (that goeth upward) while the body goes in the ground. Your selective quoting needs to look harder.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?​

I would say that you are mistaken, because you weren't reading Solomon very carefully. This is not a collection of "man's arguments" and of course there is no "lesson of the afterlife" as you understand it, because THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT. Solomon does speak of what is to come, and you would see that if you read all the way through the end, as scripture is meant to be read, in context, to the end.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
(13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
(14) For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

You missed the whole point of Ecclesiastes because you were more concerned with jettisoning the book to protect "living while dead."

No, I've read the entire book many times. Solomon does come to God at the end of his life, but not before he speaks all the wisdom of man known under the sun. You think way too highly of yourself, Rossenritter. You have a pet doctrine and try to prove it with a book you don't even understand. Men come to the same conclusions Solomon does...although most lack his wisdom.

Mark 14:21 KJV
(21) The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Glory, I think I'll stick with "Jesus had the perspective of God" on this one. If you attempt to gut Solomon on this one, who was given his wisdom directly from God himself, then you also attack Jesus.

1 Kings 4:29 KJV(29) And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.

What a crock. I attack Jesus, Himself. You're a fool for saying that.

Look here Glory. Let's pretend for a brief moment that you're wrong here. If so, if you were wrong on this one matter, that the dead indeed were dead and didn't even know that they were dead, would this have any terrible consequence? Would those raised by Christ in that blessed resurrection be any less alive for ever more? Would they have missed anything worth missing, being raised at Christ's return, at the finale of all finales that this earth has ever seen, missing everything evil and mournful to be observed in between?

Isaiah 57:1 KJV
(1) The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.


Together, all together, not a tiny trickle, but with a shout, with a trumpet, that the saints of old and their children reunited all in one accord, that they without us should not be made perfect?

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Pretend for a moment that I might be right. Would that be a bad thing? Does it have any terrible hidden price to pay that could not be borne?

It wouldn't be bad, but it would be wrong. :nono:

I'd love it if God made everyone sleep and wake up happy and laying down with the lions and lambs....but I'd be a fool to ignore the teachings of the Bible....I'd be a fool to twist and distort the Scripture (as you are doing), just so you could say you were right.

 

[glorydaz]

Good study on that chapter glory. Remember how I was obsessed with likes and reps? :chuckle: I gave that up

You've come a long way, baby.

 

[glorydaz]

No, angels do not have "resurrected bodies" any more than God in heaven had a "resurrected body" in the days of Moses. It says we shall be changed, and that we shall be as the angels, and that our bodies are changed to be spiritual bodies.

Just because some bodies are resurrected and then changed to spiritual bodies, does not mean that there was no such thing as a spiritual body before that point, or that God or angels do not possess bodies of spirit. If you have a passage that says that God or angels do not have bodies (not fleshly bodies, and yes I know that angels have been in flesh before) then that's what I would look for.

Then why don't you look for it instead of coming after me. There is such a thing as seeking answers out...dialoguing instead of confronting. I think the verse of how we shall be like the angels is clear without our imagining what isn't there.

Now, here, I think Paul may be speaking of our interim body (spiritual), but perhaps not quite like the spiritual body we will receive at the resurrection. I don't know, but Jesus had an interim body, too, if you recall.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

This, of course, speaks of the resurrection of our body.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.​

If you can find any verses where angels (spirit beings) have a spiritual body, I'll certainly look, although I have no idea what you think that will prove. Spirit beings don't have bodies of flesh like we do. These are only our tents in which we dwell upon this earth. Corruptible....earthly.

 

[Cross Reference]

You are assuming, the man Jesus was an "interim" body when in fact he was born to be entrusted with the responsibility of protecting the Word of God; the Whole of the Godhead. He could never have accomplished that for the benefit of mankind had He been God at that point in time. Jesus' flesh was vulnerable as any other human being to the effects of Adam's transgression.

OMT: Angels were always angels, fallen notwithstanding. Nothing else.

 

[Cross Reference]

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,. . . " Revelation 20:5-6 (KJV)

What do the words "second death" signify?

OMT: What does being cast into a "bottomless pit" also indicate? When would anyone stop falling except when they hit bottom?