Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[ok doser]

The Book of Revelation is a book of symbolism. It is unwise to take a passage from it and use it to overturn all of the rest of scripture. Even of you were to take this symbolic passage completely literally (and ignore the rest of scripture) it doesn't say that PEOPLE will go to hell where they will be tormented forever.

this one does:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Timotheos]

this one does:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

That one doesn't say they will go to hell where they will be tormented forever, it says that they will have no rest. It doesn't say they have no rest and are in torment forever. It does say the SMOKE of the torment rises forever, but again, it doesn't say the torment last forever. This also shows the trouble with getting your doctrine exclusively from the Book of Revelation.

 

[ok doser]

it says:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

it says:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In eternity there is not day and night.

Isaiah 60:19
"No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the LORD for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory.

 

[ok doser]

interesting claim



how do you reconcile it with rev 14:11?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

interesting claim


Can you back it?

Revelation 21:25
Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.

 

[ok doser]

this is referring to the lake of fire?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

this is referring to the lake of fire?

,When the lake of fire is in use there is day and night.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

how do you reconcile it with rev 14:11?

Up, up and away........

 

[way 2 go]

Up, up and away........

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

lake of fire still exists even after the new heaven and a new earth

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

 

[way 2 go]

This is in a parable, not a description of the condition of hell after the final judgment. Whenever the Bible decribes the fate of the wicked it uses the language of complete destruction. When God destroys the wicked, the Bible says "The wicked will be no more". (Psalm 37:10) When someone is NO MORE, they do not continue to exist as if they were not NO MORE.

the city of sodom is no more
the people still exist
Mat 11:24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

You keep repeating the same rejected arguments. An existing person can be punished by having their existence removed forever. That is an eternal punishment. The effect of the punishment lasts forever. If FOREVER isn't ETERNAL, then Nothing is!

no person no punishment

The Book of Revelation is a book of symbolism. It is unwise to take a passage from it and use it to overturn all of the rest of scripture. Even of you were to take this symbolic passage completely literally (and ignore the rest of scripture) it doesn't say that PEOPLE will go to hell where they will be tormented forever. Read it again. It says the devil, the beast (which has seven heads and tens horns!!!), and the false prophet. NOT every human who has ever lived.

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

You are forgetting to look at the context to determine the meaning of apoletai (perish). Since perish (apoletai) is contrasted with HAVING ETERNAL LIFE, you should be able to see that apoletai really does mean "to perish", to NOT have eternal life. Also, you are arguing that apoletai doesn't really mean "to perish", but EVERY Greek Language expert who has ever translated the Bible has translated "apoletai" as "perish" in John 3:16. Are you seriously suggesting that EVERY Bible translation has gotten the translation of John 3:16 wrong, and only YOU know how John 3:16 should be translated? Are you also suggesting that you first read John 3:16 and believed it when it said that those who reject the Son will perish, but then after an extensive study of the Greek Language in John 3:16, you rejected the translation and came to the conclusion that the unrepentant will live forever in torment? I don't believe that. I think it is much more likely that you are grasping at anything you can just to hold onto the doctrine that you want to believe. Reading your doctrine INTO scripture is called "eisegesis" and it is not the proper way to understand scripture. A doctrine should be derive out of a careful study of scripture, not the other way around.

Jesus perished and rose from said state

you only have one definition of death
which is why it is Illegitimate Totality Transfer


Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
Death means the end of life. Being dead means not being alive any longer.

You REALLY need to look at the context of the prooftexts you throw up.
The verse immediately before your excised passage says "The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying...", so your passage attempting to "prove" that death is a place where dead people are alive also "proves" that trees can talk. Bring me a talking tree, and then you will have proven that death is a place and not the condition of no longer being alive. And it isn't JUST talking trees that proves you wrong. Isaiah 14:4 says "you will take up this TAUNT against the King of Babylon". So is Isaiah 14:9-10 a travel description of Hell? No, it is part of a taunt against the King of Babylon. Context is key, and you are ignoring the context in your rush to find ANY evidence for your doctrine. Eisegesis, again.

so you could not give an argument against there being a place of death

The place of death

Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming.

Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

death as a condition

Rom_7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

[Timotheos]

the city of sodom is no more
the people still exist...

I've already addressed all of your objections to the truth. You did add an additional objection that you believe the people of Sodom have not been destroyed. According to the Bible, they have been destroyed, and their destruction is an example of the destruction in the coming judgment..."he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly..." (2 Peter 2:6 ESV)

I'm going out to a wilderness area for a week, and I won't be able to discuss this with you during that time. I hope that you continue to study what God's Word has to say on this matter.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

lake of fire still exists even after the new heaven and a new earth

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

I reckon it will last till Jesus is done using it for baptizing.


Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

 

[way 2 go]

I reckon it will last till Jesus is done using it for baptizing.

not baptism it is eternal punishment
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Act 2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

not baptism it is eternal punishment
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment


Act 2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Different baptism.

At Pentecost they were sprinkled.

The lake of fire is immersion.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Ezekiel 5:4

Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

 

[Arthur Brain]

have fun burning in hell, loser :idunno:

Wow, the sheer wit, the elan, the inventiveness of such a retort...

It...

Well, no, it didn't burn at all as it happened. As per usual it was just you being a sad boring little troll with nowt better to do but be, well, the above.

Seriously, get a life man!

:thumb:

 

[way 2 go]

Different baptism.

At Pentecost they were sprinkled.

The lake of fire is immersion.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Ezekiel 5:4

Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

so at Pentecost they were punished.

 

[Arthur Brain]

so at Pentecost they were punished.

It really is ironic of you to continually use 'Mr Spock' gifs.

:AMR:

 

[way 2 go]

Don't you believe that extermination is a punishment?

which I answered :nono:

so

I believe what Jesus said in Matthew 25:46 too. Matthew 25:46 does not prove that the eternal punishment for sin is not death,

it proves there is eternal punishment not annihilation

Jesus could have left the word "eternal" out but
chose to use it because it is a warning


Judas is going to have worse punishment in eternity than others

Mat_26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Here is the defintion of "Capital Punishment":
1.the legally authorized killing of someone as punishment for a crime.

how long does it take to go from alive to dead ? not long ,

not an eternity

Notice that "killing someone" (death) actually IS "punishment" for a crime.

Jesus perished

Rev_1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Eternal punishment is punishment that lasts forever. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death.

death is not the punishment, fire is the punishment.

Illegitimate Totality Transfer by you of the word death again

Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

This death lasts forever for those who do not receive eternal life.

Illegitimate Totality Transfer by you of the word death again

Since it lasts forever it is eternal.

we agree on eternal

Since death is a punishment AND it is eternal

Illegitimate Totality Transfer by you of the word death again
death is not the punishment, fire is the punishment.

, it is an eternal punishment

death is not the punishment, fire is the punishment.

Matthew 25:46 does not prove that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torture in hell.

punishment
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.
can you torment a dead person?
can you punish a dead person?

 

[Timotheos]

punishment
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.
can you torment a dead person?
can you punish a dead person?

I could ask you the same thing. Can YOU torment a dead person? No. But a LIVING person can be punished by remving their life. Do you understand this? And if a Living person has their life removed and no longer has any life for all of eternity, that is an eternal punishment, and you CAN'T say that it is NOT.

So Matthew 25:46 does not prove that the eternal punishment is eternal torture in hell, but John 3:16 and many other scriptures prove beyond any doubt that only those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will receive eternal life, and those who reject Him will perish. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."