Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Timotheos

New member
You just give a different meaning to death...

The verse says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

"Death" in this context is contrasted with the opposite of death, which is "life". So you can plainly see that "death" here means "the absence of life", which is exactly how I am using the word death.


The fact is that it is you who is giving a different meaning to death, a meaning that it does not have, and you have no basis for doing this or any evidence whatsoever that death does not mean death. Furthermore, the Greek word that Paul uses for death in Romans 6:23 is thanatos, and the translation for thanatos is (not surprisingly) "death".
 
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Derf

Well-known member
"King of majesty; There is no power in hell, or any who can stand before the power and the presence of the Great I Am"

We're playing this song on Sunday for the Church.
(Great I Am - Phillips Craig and Dean)

Not trying to belittle the song, but is there a connection to this thread?


(What do you play?)
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
We have shown time and again that death is not ceasing to exist. We showed you Lazarus and Dives among many other examples...stop with the lies

We showed you that ALL who have ever lived will be resurrected....

If you were not crooked in your arguments we could not call you on it.
 

Derf

Well-known member
We have shown time and again that death is not ceasing to exist. We showed you Lazarus and Dives among many other examples...stop with the lies

We showed you that ALL who have ever lived will be resurrected....

If you were not crooked in your arguments we could not call you on it.

You're getting there...don't stop now! Why is it important that "ALL who have ever lived will be resurrected" in the definition of "death".

(And I'd hate to be a criminal with you on my jury: "If you weren't guilty, the policeman wouldn't have arrested you.")
 

rstrats

Active member
re: "We have shown time and again that death is not ceasing to exist."

But it hasn't been shown where scripture says that the unsaved will be given eternal life and be tortured 24/7 for eternity.
 

Derf

Well-known member
re: "We have shown time and again that death is not ceasing to exist."

But it hasn't been shown where scripture says that the unsaved will be given eternal life and be tortured 24/7 for eternity.

Nor has it ever been shown that you, specifically, will be saved. Yet I bet you believe you will be. Why is that?
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Serious reflections.............

Serious reflections.............

Yes, of course, but are we understanding both sides of the argument.

If any of us say "scripture says", then they need to make sure we are reading all of scripture. So if the wages of sin is "death" do we understand fully what "death means. ECTers say "death" is "spiritual death". Ok, and Timotheos is saying "death" means that thing which has died has ceased to function. What is a spirit that has ceased to function?

You might note the term 'spiritual death' is a subjective interpretation for there is no scripture that uses the term, specifically. - its a popular assumption though. As far as the biblical definition of 'death', it appears to be the cessation of life. You'd have to go thru every Hebrew and greek term translated as 'life' or 'death' in english and see what it best refers to in relation to the soul's condition, and then you may still have ROOM for 'speculation'.

In the broad spectrum of what we define as 'life' and 'death',...it would appear the extreme polarity of the 'states' or 'conditions' are apparent. 'Death' is the negation of life. Now if we include in the condition of 'life'...'consciousness' also,...then we could assume that 'death' to be a condition where is no conscious existence, no functional life or being. So we have some 'metaphysical' issues and definitions to figure out, and in proper 'context'. That's why I proposed opening to consider modern day psychical research on NDEs/OBE's and the Afterlife on the subject of whether consciousness does indeed continue on after physical death. Many in the 'conditional immortality' camp assume there is only 'sleep'(unconsciousness) after death, until souls are resurrection unto judgment. So this question of 'continued consciousness' after physical death is of great interest.

On the other hand, is anybody going to be tortured forever?

This would seem to be illogical or insane, UNLESS a soul could keep itself in a condition of 'ceaseless sinning' or some insane state of mind...forever and ever :idunno:

That LOVE itself would impose and maintain a condition of endless suffering upon any sentient being is a most insane assumption, since such is wholly contrary to love.

If anybody is, is it a just punishment? How do we decide what a "just" punishment is?

While ECTers are fond of defending God as a God who can do as He pleases, just because hes 'God' (that apparently includes insane acts),....they still have to deal with the question of fairness and real justice, in the light of all-tempering mercy....if indeed God is love. In an equitable system of karmic law, a sinner could suffer no more or less than only what measure or degree of sin he commits, and will likewise only reap what he has sown, 'proportionately',...as the law of cause/effect; action/consequence metes out its results equitably.

'Seedtime and harvest',....sowing and reaping'....these are universal laws, experienced individually, as well as operating within the whole fabric of the cosmos, thru-out all creation. Now, I bring up 'karma' because its a pertinent subject here, as being the 'law of retribution', although understood from an eastern religious/philosophic view, it differs in some respects from a Western understanding or misconstruing of the principle, but is pretty central to the subject here of 'just compensation'. - I may do a thread on this subject in time.

In any case,...these questions are essential. In my own trust of God, I see there being perfect justice ultimately in the universe, which includes all cases, in all time and eternity, since no matter what happens the divine laws and the divine ONE rules and wills all things into being. If you worship the ONE as a Heavenly Father, then he loves his universe children.

As far as 'just compensation' for all actions..... I think philosophical reasoning must play a part here, since God gives man the faculties to at least rationalize and come to some knowledge of his fairness in judgment, and some understanding of what is truly 'just' and 'merciful'. We have the image and likeness of God in our own being, so that 'mirror' in us exists, even if we see it in only a dim light. One must remain open to what light or wisdom may dawn upon the subject, and it is only in our own consciousness that anything at all can be known, or unknown.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Derf,
re: "Nor has it ever been shown that you, specifically, will be saved."

That is correct. What is your point?

In the same way, scripture doesn't say, specifically, "the unsaved will be given eternal life and be tortured 24/7 for eternity", but that doesn't mean that the same isn't taught in scripture. Just like "trinity" isn't in scripture, but the concept IS.
 

Timotheos

New member
In the same way, scripture doesn't say, specifically, "the unsaved will be given eternal life and be tortured 24/7 for eternity", but that doesn't mean that the same isn't taught in scripture. Just like "trinity" isn't in scripture, but the concept IS.

Here's the thing about that though,

Although the concept of the trinity CAN be proven from Scripture, the concept that "the unsaved will be given eternal life and be tortured 24/7 for eternity" can not be proven from Scripture. However Scripture DOES specifically state that the wicked will perish and will be no more and that only the righteous will inherit eternal life. So while the concept of the Trinity and Conditional Immortality can be proven from Scripture, the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment cannot.

ECTists always like to compare ECT to the Trinity, but it isn't the same. Neither one is directly stated in Scripture, but one is true (the trinity) and one is false (eternal torture).
 

rstrats

Active member
Derf,
re: "In the same way, scripture doesn't say, specifically, 'the unsaved will be given eternal life and be tortured 24/7 for eternity'..."

So since scripture doesn't say it, a person can go either way; ECT or EUD. Thus a person must want unsaved folks to be tortured for eternity if they select the ECT option because they could just as easily select the option of EUD.
 

Timotheos

New member
We have shown time and again that death is not ceasing to exist.
I'm sorry, but you simply have not proven this.

We showed you Lazarus and Dives
Yes, I know that you continually refer to the parable of Lazarus and Dives as "proof", but the parable does not define "death" as eternal life.

among many other examples...
You THINK that you have, but in reality you have not. The Bible does not define "death" as "eternal life in hell".

stop with the lies
I haven't been lying. I'm merely pointing out the fact that you have never shown where the Bible defines "Death" as "Eternal Life". I don't know if you know this, but the Bible isn't really a book of definitions. A book that contains the definitions of words is called a "Dictionary". I just thought that I would point that out to you.

We showed you that ALL who have ever lived will be resurrected....
And I completely agree with that. I thought that you knew that I believed everyone will be resurrected and that the wicked will be judged and destroyed on "the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly". 2 Peter 3:7 ESV

If you were not crooked in your arguments we could not call you on it.
I just believe what the Bible says. You are the one who can't seem to stop insulting me. Your statement shows your bias. You are like a person telling a innocent man on death row, "if you weren't guilty, we wouldn't be putting you to death." You ASSUME that I am not telling the truth, so you call me a snake. You have NOT proven that the Bible says that bad people go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead. All your insults prove is that you are very good at insulting people. I expect that you get a lot of practice at that. "Practice makes perfect" as the saying goes. But insulting people is not really something to be proud of.

If you really want to convince me of what you are saying, you need to start by stopping with the insults. Convince me FIRST that you are a person who is worth listening to. You need to dig out of the hole you dug yourself into. You may start with an apology and a promise to never do it again, and we can work forward from there.
 

Timotheos

New member
We have shown you many times in scripture so don't lie

Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.

48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.

50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
you should be able to handle a different point of view


i don't mind considering a different point of view when there's some intelligence behind it and not just meaningless repetition and denial


timmy's no different from the anti-trins we get here occasionally

he's just another jerzy
 

rstrats

Active member
ok doser,
re: "i don't mind considering a different point of view when there's some intelligence behind it..."

And you think it's intelligent to think that it's appropriate to torture folks 24/7 for eternity simply because during their short period of life they didn't meet the supreme being's requirements for salvation?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
And you think it's intelligent to think that it's appropriate to torture folks 24/7 for eternity simply because during their short period of life they didn't meet the supreme being's requirements for salvation?


of course

if you think otherwise, be sure to whine about it to God when you're standing in front of the judgement throne


but be a pal and wait 'til i get there to watch, ok?
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
i don't mind considering a different point of view when there's some intelligence behind it and not just meaningless repetition and denial


timmy's no different from the anti-trins we get here occasionally

he's just another jerzy

so let me ask you two questions

does God want some to suffer eternally?

can God destroy a soul?
 
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