:doh:
What's to like about a repeat of an argument that has already been refuted? Just because it agrees with what you already believe? The argument failed the first 5 times I saw it. It is no better now.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
:doh:
What's to like about a repeat of an argument that has already been refuted? Just because it agrees with what you already believe? The argument failed the first 5 times I saw it. It is no better now.
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The point is not the lie he told, he lied about what God had warned...so do you. take your action, the fact whether or not I get banned merely silences my voice, it doesn't alter the truth.
You are no rookie at this are you? you've been around, I will bet pretty soon TOL will be infested with other like minded with you.
It appears that you posit a non-eternal soul, a soul that can cease to exist.
Is that supportable scripturally?
In your view, is a soul eternal only if it is saved?
Non responsive answer, again, take that verse, break it down and show us how it DOESNT mean forever when it not only says forever but adds day and night, never resting.
Annihilation would be rest from all of it forever, the opposite of what that verse says.
Now im not interested in anything else you have to say, untill you can take that verse and break it down and show me how it doesnt really say what its saying pretty clearly, that they will be tormented forever, and day and night without rest.
Actually refute it.
The failure is yours, you keep glossing over that verse and wont deal with it.
We are waiting for you to deal with it and show us exactly how it doesnt mean what it says.
There are way more than 3 passages that support that "death" does not equal "cease to exist".
Do you see the second death as numerical? As another death that occurs after a first death?
If so, that alone proves that "death" does not equal "cease to exist".
For how can one that has already ceased to exist experience another death?
I don't believe there are any that support the idea that death means "continue to exist".
Yes! The second death the next death after the first death. I don't think death means "cease to exist", since the dead person continues to exist AS A DEAD PERSON. But they do not continue to exist as a living person. They are not conscious. How can one who has died experience another death? Well, according to the Bible, there is a resurrection after the first death, and before the second death.
YES! Matthew 10:28 fear the one who can destroy body and soul in Gehenna. Is a naturally immortal soul supportable scripturally? I don't think so.
In your view, is a soul eternal only if it is saved?[/QUOTE]
Yes, the soul is the person, in greek it is pysche and in hebrew nepesh. The only way to have immortality is to receive it as a gift from God. Unrepentant sinners perish. They are not immortal, because they refuse to accept Jesus Christ, therefore they have rejected the only way to receive immortality.
Remember that the Bible says that only God is immortal. That's why it is a gift from Him to us. If we were already immortal, immortality would not be a gift.
Eternal LIFE - Jesus said i am the way the truth and the life, we do not have life apart from Christ. We are spiritually dead(separated from God) already before being saved.
The second death is permanent eternal separation - thats why its called the second death, because we have already been dead spiritually once, while in this life - then we will be forever if we do not receive Christ and choose life instead.
Eternity is not the gift, LIFE is, real life in Christ, instead of death (separation)
I disagree, if we all already had eternal life, eternal life would not be a gift. Eternal life is the gift, real (actual) life in Christ instead of death.
Tell me the scripture that makes you believe that death means separation. I don't believe there is any verse that says that.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I do believe Him. I also believe the story told about the rich man suffering in hell was real. I also believe the description of ECT in Scripture is true. I also believe that if only annihilation were all that judgment brought, it wouldn't be punishment. The wicked would not suffer at all for their wickedness. They'd simply be no more. The Lord is just and brings the punishment that is needed. He is The Judge of The Universe and when He punishes wicked souls, their punishment is deserved and continues eternally.
Aimiel
Well-known member
That's because you look at death from a mortal perspective, and it is your body which is mortal. Your immortal soul suffers far greater things than mere end of breath and heartbeat should it be judged.
Why should God bother to waste any time waking someone to put them out of existence? Why not just leave them dead? Do you think death means non-existance? It is just entry into the spirit realm.
To be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord, but He doesn't abide wickedness. They must be tormented for their sins. They also get cast into the Lake of Fire. It is never quenched. It never stops hurting. There is no rest. Smoke ascends from the torment for ever and ever. You can't expect smoke from annihilation to ascend for ever and ever. It would end after the last soul was judged and the smoke would dissipate, most likely within a few minutes. The smoke from ECT doesn't end. Ever.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Can't be done. The Bible is infallible.
Thats where you are wrong, eternity is not the gift, life in Christ is, being raised to life, resurrected from our spiritual death, alive in Christ is the gift.
Thats where your disconnect is and do not understand that the second death is being made aware of life at the judgment and then being made eternally dead (separated)
Death - θάνατος (thanatos)
thanatos: death
Original Word: θάνατος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: thanatos
Phonetic Spelling: (than'-at-os)
Short Definition: death
Definition: death, physical or spiritual.
2288 thánatos (derived from 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – physical or spiritual death; (figuratively) separation from the life (salvation) of God forever by dying without first experiencing death to self to receive His gift of salvation.
The very word that death is translated from in the greek means separation from life.
Because the Bible says they are to be resurrected for judgment and THEN sent to the second death. And why bother asking God why? If wea re to do that, Why don't you ask God why he bothers sending the lost to hell to be tormented, then waste time resurrecting them, just to send them back to hell for more eternal torment?
Christ - I am the way, the truth and the LIFE.
Sin seperates us from God (spiritually dead) we are dead before we receive Christ, seperated from LIFE which IS Christ.
The second death is to be separated AGAIN, for those who refused to receive Him, they are resurrected to stand before Him at the judgment - then they will face the SECOND death, being separated from LIFE/CHRIST Eternally
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
You are quoting scriptures that agree with my position. Of course they are separated from life eternally. That's what death is. That is also the only way to be separated from God who is omnipresent.
But there is no place in the bible where the term "spiritually dead" is used.