Is Romans 9 about Salvation ?

beloved57

Well-known member
Rom 9:1-33


I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The answer is yes, its about Salvation, in fact the whole book of Romans, especially Chapters 1 through 11 is particularly about the Gospel of God . Rom 1:1,15-17

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.


16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Salvation and the Gospel is the theme of the Letter. Romans 9 therefore and the information it contains and reveals is the Gospel of God !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Ch. 9, 10, 11 are about the Nation of Israel (Jews), and their place in the scheme of things.

Rabbit trail ! Rom 9:24

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Includes Gentiles in this matter !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Most people believe wrongly about Rom 9 and teach that it doesn't have anything to do with Salvation and even more the Salvation of individuals. However it does have to do with individuals in Salvation and Gods Sovereignty in an individuals Salvation and Reprobation ! This is seen in God making some individuals as vessels of wrath 9:22 and some vessels of mercy 9:23,
 

beameup

New member
Rabbit trail ! Rom 9:24

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Includes Gentiles in this matter !

elephant trail

But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people [Gentiles], and by a foolish nation [Gentiles] I will anger you. - Romans 10:19
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. - Romans 11:11
 

beloved57

Well-known member
elephant trail

But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people [Gentiles], and by a foolish nation [Gentiles] I will anger you. - Romans 10:19
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. - Romans 11:11

Rabbit trail What does Rom 9:24 specifically say ?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
God in Romans 9 has revealed both Salvation of some and its correspondent Reprobation of the rest, Some have been ordained to Salvation/Eternal Life Acts 13:48 and 1 Thess 5:9 and some have been appointed to condemnation and disobedience [children of disobedience] 1 Pet 28;Jude 4. These Identify the vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy of Rom 9:22-23 !
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Most people believe wrongly about Rom 9 and teach that it doesn't have anything to do with Salvation and even more the Salvation of individuals. However it does have to do with individuals in Salvation and Gods Sovereignty in an individuals Salvation and Reprobation ! This is seen in God making some individuals as vessels of wrath 9:22 and some vessels of mercy 9:23,


Exactly, Romans Chapter 9 has everything to do with Salvation.

God has appointed the Vessels of Wrath Rom. 9:22, the wicked He Created for the day of evil in Prov. 16:4, and the Vessels of Mercy He Created to be joint heirs with Christ. Both groups of vessels God had, according to His Will and Purpose Eph. 3:11, already appointed from Everlasting Rom. 9:21 and determined the number of them, who they should be, and Purposely Created them that way Job 23:13.
 

beameup

New member
Rabbit trail What does Rom 9:24 specifically say ?

Yet another elephant trail. Do you have difficulty with the English language (ESL)?
"Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid"
What is it about the term "covenant" that you don't understand?
"For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." - Romans 11:27
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" - Romans 11:28-29

Romans ch. 9-11 should be taken as a whole, not chopped up and taken out of context as you do.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Yet another elephant trail. Do you have difficulty with the English language (ESL)?
"Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid"
What is it about the term "covenant" that you don't understand?
"For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." - Romans 11:27


Romans ch. 9-11 should be taken as a whole, not chopped up and taken out of context as you do.

Evasion and rabbit trail
 

BoyStan

New member
Romans 9-11 demonstrates that God, in His own sovereign free will, justly saves some and condemns others in the story of the Jewish nation and in salvation of both jews and gentiles. Naturally many Christians, pastors, theologians, philosophers, Bible students, atheists, agnostics, absolutely hate this truth today! They desire to glorify man but the truth of Romans 9-11 only glorifies God!
 

beameup

New member
There is more than one group of "elect", and there is more than one "destiny" for each of those "elect" groups. Of course, Emperor Constantine saw nothing but desolation for the Jews, and adopted the "Replacement" doctrine for his Holy Roman Empire church.

"for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"

For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [both Gentile & Israel]. Romans 11:30-32
 

BoyStan

New member
Yes, God shows mercy to both Jews and Gentiles but not to every single Jew or Gentile.Today there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in regards
salvation. Only those Jews and gentiles that God freely calls will be saved. The rest will be a demonstration of God's justice!
 

beameup

New member
Yes, God shows mercy to both Jews and Gentiles but not to every single Jew or Gentile.Today there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in regards
salvation. Only those Jews and gentiles that God freely calls will be saved. The rest will be a demonstration of God's justice!

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening [some Jews are "saved" by grace] has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [ie: Rapture/Harpazo]
and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

Romans 11:25-27
 

beameup

New member
"all Israel' means the total number of elect Jews and Gentiles who together are the new Israel of God.

It says "JACOB" as well, just so the Holy Spirit makes it perfectly clear that he is talking about genetic Israel (genetically pure Jews).
BTW, "genetically pure" Jews can be found in the present-day NATION of Israel (just in case you were confused on the issue). They have been there for 70 years.

“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Rom. 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

JACOB and his posterity [Jacobs] are God's Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23, which consists of the World of God's Elect [kosmos] that God Loved and gave His only begotten Son for to have Everlasting Life John 3:16; His Election of Grace Eph. 1:4-7; Rom. 11:5, hence they are Christ's Seed and one with Him. So everyone of them shall be Born of the Spirit / born again and given Faith to Believe in Him Gal. 5:22; Titus 1:1: The ISRAEL which was Promised Salvation Is. 45:17; the Spiritual Seed of Abraham, the Seed of Christ Gal. 3:16, 29 whether jew or gentile.

On the other hand, ESAU and his posterity [Esaus] are God's Vessels of Wrath Rom. 9:22, that were always outside of His Grace, and which He has purposely fitted for destruction. Jesus referred to them as serpents and the generation of vipers Mat. 23:32-33 condemned to hell, the seed of the devil and one with him, Created by God to suffer eternal shame and contempt Dan. 12:2; Rev. 21:8, whether jew or gentile.
 
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