Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The person and work of Christ go together in the gospel.

You can repeat your nonsense until you turn blue in the face because on the day of Pentecost Peter did not preach the work of Christ, that He died for our sins.

You are a fool because you cannot even understand the DIFFERENCE between the "good news" that Christ died for our sins and the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

To you they are the same instances of "good news." How stupid can you get?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It does your cause no service to call other people fools.

All I am doing is calling a spade a spade.

The savior even says not to do that...unless you are one of those who believe the Savior's words are no longer in force but are merely good advice.

Here is what the Lord Jesus Himself said to some men:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (Jn.8;44).​

Too bad you were not around in the first century so you could have told the Lord Jesus that He shouldn't say such things to others.

Just so we get it straight, I also believe there is only one gospel.

There is one instance of "good news" which declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And anyone believing that gospel are saved when they believed it (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:30-31).

Today the "good news" we are to preach is the fact that Christ died for our sins, that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Do you honestly believe that these two instances of good news are the same good news?
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Read Acts 2.
I have! Peter did not preach that Christ died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV). Peter didn't know it (Galatians 2:1-9 KJV). Christ dying for some men's sins was a mystery hidden in the scriptures, kept secret since the world began (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV). What Peter preached was spoken since the world began (Acts 3:21 KJV). Peter preached a shame and a murder on all the house of Israel (Acts 2:22-23 KJV, 36). Paul gloried in the cross (Galatians 4:16 KJV). And what Peter preached about resurrection (Acts 2:30 KJV) is different as night and day from what Paul preached (Romans 4:25 KJV).

The King James Bible once again proves your religious, denominational loyalty, but dung.
 

Bright Raven

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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I have! Peter did not preach that Christ died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV). Peter didn't know it (Galatians 2:1-9 KJV). Christ dying for some men's sins was a mystery hidden in the scriptures, kept secret since the world began (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV). What Peter preached was spoken since the world began (Acts 3:21 KJV). Peter preached a shame and a murder on all the house of Israel (Acts 2:22-23 KJV, 36). Paul gloried in the cross (Galatians 4:16 KJV). And what Peter preached about resurrection (Acts 2:30 KJV) is different as night and day from what Paul preached (Romans 4:25 KJV).

The King James Bible once again proves your religious, denominational loyalty, but dung.

Amen.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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I am not. It says he referenced everything about himself in the Law, prophets and in the Psalms and furthermore that he "45...opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures." (Luke 24:45) so how can you possibly say the meaning was hidden from them?

Not so Lord!

Wow, the Bible contradicts itself. Whatever are you going to do?
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart;4046305]If it was common knowledge that the OT reveald that the Messiah would die for sins then why did those closest to Him not even know He was to die? (see Luke 18:33-34).

It was not common knowledge to everyone. Jesus Himself revealed it to his disciples when He appeared to them in resurrected form. This was after he had breathed into them the Holy Spirit (John 20:22)and opened their minds to understand the scriptures At that time He went through all the passages explaining how all the scriptures spoke of Him.

Again, why did those closest to Him not even know that He was going to die?

Luke 18:33-34 occurred years before Luke 24. Why keeping judging the disciples by what they knew in chapter 18? It is like judging the Paul of Acts 17 by who he was in, say, Acts 9

That is not found at Luke 24 but instead at Isaiah 53.Besides that, the prophet who wrote that did not understand the significance of the Lord's suffering. Here is what Peter said:
Yes, I brought that in because Isaiah 53 was among the entire array of scriptures in the Law, Prophets and Psalms that spoke of Jesus. Would He leave out any key verse about His suffering when the burning question on their minds was WHY the Lord had to be crucified? That this good man had died was not enough to provide a basis for the forgiveness of sin unless He were to perform the function of a sin offering which is what this chapter says.

"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven" (1 Pet.1:10-1).​


Here Peter is speaking of the prophets of the Old Covenant not what Jesus communicated to them

The Old Testament prophets did not understand it but in the fullness of time Jesus Himself and the Holy Spirit revealed it (Hebrews 1:1-2)

This does not tie the bearing of sins to the death of the Lord Jesus.

If Isaiah 53:5 does not establish the link between Christ's our redemption and Christ's death then consider verse 8 which says he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.(Isaiah 53:8). Being "cut off from the land of the living seems to be talking about death to me.

Then why did those closest to Him not know that He was going to die?

The reason why no one knew was because it was kept secret and not revealed in the OT although the last of the old prophets John the Baptist foresaw it when he called Jesus "The Lamb of God"

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.2:7-8).

The enemies of God would not have crucified the Lord Jesus if they had known the purpose of His death. Therefore, that purpose was kept secret and it was not revealed in the OT.

When Jesus was revealing Himself to the disciples after the Resurrection He was no longer hiding truths within parables.
 

godrulz

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You can repeat your nonsense until you turn blue in the face because on the day of Pentecost Peter did not preach the work of Christ, that He died for our sins.

You are a fool because you cannot even understand the DIFFERENCE between the "good news" that Christ died for our sins and the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

To you they are the same instances of "good news." How stupid can you get?

Both/and, not either/or. There is no good news/ONE gospel if He is not Son of God or did not die/rise. Muslims deny these things. Christians affirm them. MAD is a fringe view that is simply false and unhelpful.

Just because the disciples' eyes were not fully open is not an argument for two gospels. Just because Peter and Paul articulated details differently in different contexts is not evidence for two true gospels.

There is one Christ, one cross, one resurrection. The gospel is only based on this, so MAD is misguided.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
[=Jerry Shugart;4046314]All I am doing is calling a spade a spade.

Very well, Jerry, call people "raca" to your heart's content but people are not fools because they disagree with you. Jesus cautioned people about calling people fools because underlying it is the sin of contempt. Of course, if the words of Jesus are not obligatory but just, good ideas written TO us but not meant FOR us then I guess it does not matter.

Here is what the Lord Jesus Himself said to some men:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (Jn.8;44).

Too bad you were not around in the first century so you could have told the Lord Jesus that He shouldn't say such things to others.

The difference is (1) you, unlike Jesus are not without error and (2) if the Lord were to rebuke me it would not be out of impatience it would be out of love for me. He knows that I only want to know the truth and serve Him.

There is one instance of "good news" which declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And anyone believing that gospel are saved when they believed it (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:30-31).

Today the "good news" we are to preach is the fact that Christ died for our sins, that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Do you honestly believe that these two instances of good news are the same good news?

It is you and others who have tried artificially impose a dichotomy between the ideas of Jesus being the Christ the Son of God and Him being the Sacrifice Lamb who died for our sins. In the First Epistle of John (which you cited) it says:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Here you have the cleansing blood of Jesus (the work of the cross) juxtaposed with the message that He is the Christ the Son of God. This is all good news and one good news. Peter too, wrote in 1 Peter Chapter 1

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Is there any doubt but what he is speaking of Christ who died for us as the propitiation for our sin.

The carefully crafted paradigm of separate gospels simply does not fit.
 

godrulz

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For the life of me, I cannot understand this vapid argument that tries to divorce the person and work of Christ, germane to the ONE true gospel post-cross, pre-Paul.

MAD arguments are weak and the reason very few people have even heard of the erroneous teaching. Turning it into a confusing, divisive sect is odious (cf. KJVO).
:argue::noid:
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
I have! Peter did not preach that Christ died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV).
Neither did Paul on Mars Hill and yet you are willing to conclude that Paul's gospel included the reality of Christ dying for the sins of believers of his gospel, no?

Peter may not have preached that Christ died for our sins in Acts 2, but he certainly understood that Christ died for our sins:

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." (1Pe 2:24 ESV)​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It is you and others who have tried artificially impose a dichotomy between the ideas of Jesus being the Christ the Son of God and Him being the Sacrifice Lamb who died for our sins.

No, the Scriptures reveal that the Apostles themselves preached two different gospels. Here is what Paul preached to the Jews after he was saved:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

there is not a word about the purpose of the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross.

Next, we have an uninterrupted sermon preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost beginning at Acts 2:14 and ending at Acts 2:36. in that sermon there is not a word about the purpose of the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross.

Not a word about the purpose of the Cross in either instance. And those who believed what Paul preached and what Peter preached were saved when they believed that gospel (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:30-31).

But to the Gentiles Paul says that first he preached to them that Jesus died for our sins and those believing that gospel were saved ( 1 Cor.15:1-4).

Are you willing to argue that what Paul and Peter preached to the Jews was the same "good news" that Paul preached to the Gentiles?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Just because Peter and Paul articulated details differently in different contexts is not evidence for two true gospels..

What you are saying is that just because on the day of Pentecost Peter did not preach the "gospel of grace, that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," we should not use our brains and understand that he did not preach the gospel of grace. According to you even though he preached nothing that is essential to the preaching of the "gospel of grace" we should just throw our reason to the wind and pretend that he preached the essentials.

For the life of me, I cannot understand this vapid argument that tries to divorce the person and work of Christ, germane to the ONE true gospel post-cross, pre-Paul.

It is of utmost importance in order to understand the beginning of the present dispensation. You have been shown this and even after being shown the facts you remain clueless.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Neither did Paul on Mars Hill
To have heard the word of this salvation, they would have had to be in the synagogue of the Jews fearing God as Paul was sent to the Jew first and also to the Greek, the called, at that time.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
No, the Scriptures reveal that the Apostles themselves preached two different gospels. Here is what Paul preached to the Jews after he was saved:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

there is not a word about the purpose of the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross.

Next, we have an uninterrupted sermon preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost beginning at Acts 2:14 and ending at Acts 2:36. in that sermon there is not a word about the purpose of the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross.

Not a word about the purpose of the Cross in either instance. And those who believed what Paul preached and what Peter preached were saved when they believed that gospel (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:30-31).

But to the Gentiles Paul says that first he preached to them that Jesus died for our sins and those believing that gospel were saved ( 1 Cor.15:1-4).

Are you willing to argue that what Paul and Peter preached to the Jews was the same "good news" that Paul preached to the Gentiles?

A. I have been arguing that very thing all along. Historically, no one, not even the Ante Nicene Fathers gave any indication that they thought there were TWO gospels. This idea did not see the light of day until 1800s when it was cooked up by an Anglican clergyman.

B. What I would like to know is if there is more than one gospel how come the plural form "gospelS" cannot be found? Instead it is always the singular "gospel"

C. John taught only one gospel even by your definition. In 1 John 1:7 he wrote both that Christ's blood took away our sin and that He is the Son of God. (1 John 1:7)

D. In 1 Co. 15 Paul is not saying he was the first to PREACH the message of the cross. He is saying he was the first one to preach this message TO THEM

E. The consensus of modern scholars is that the first verses of 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 is that Paul did not actually write it. He received it orally from other Christians and subsequently passed it on (also orally). These terms "receiving" and "passing on" were Rabbinical terminology for the way traditions and truths were memorized verbatim and taught.

An increasing number of exceptionally influential scholars have very recently concluded that at least the teaching of the resurrection, and perhaps even the specific formulation of the pre-Pauline creedal tradition in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7, dates to AD 30! In other words, there never was a time when the message of Jesus’ resurrection was not an integral part of the earliest apostolic proclamation. No less a scholar than James D. G. Dunn even states regarding this crucial text: “This tradition, we can be entirely confident, was formulated as tradition within months of Jesus’ death.”

Gary Habermas, “Tracing Jesus’ Resurrection to Its Earliest Eyewitness Accounts,” God is Great, God is Good (InterVarsity Press, 2009), 212.


http://books.google.com/books?id=rX...d is good&pg=PA212#v=snippet&q=bowden&f=false (page 212)

See also: http://www.carm.org/questions/about-jesus/1-cor-153-4-demonstrates-creed-too-early-legend-corrupt
D. It seems to me that much of MAD doctrine is built upon what was NOT said in particular sermons even when elsewhere in the Bible the speaker evidences that he has the understanding of the missing doctrine. It is almost like a hermeneutical form of logical positivism. "If it ain't there it don't exist." Going by this, Paul did not preach the Gentile gospel to the Athenians because in his discourse he did not mention Jesus' propitiatory death on the cross. Since the "preaching of the cross" was the power of God unto salvation omitting this truth would have been an egregious error, don't you think?

E. Still, whether every sermon he preached reflected that or not, we know Paul understood and taught the significance of the death of Christ. I made the case before that Peter also understood it. My conclusions were based upon what Jesus Himself had showed him and the others after the resurrection. His discourse through the Law, the prophets and Psalms would have covered - especially the reasons for and effects of His death which were the burning questions in their minds. He opened their minds to understand the scriptures it cannot be said that they "still didn't get it." Still, after this you continue to insist that Peter and the Twelve had no clue about why Jesus had to die on the cross. Personally I think Jesus is a great teacher and with the Holy Spirit indwelling them would have no difficulty making it clear.

First He spoke to one group of disciples headed out of town.​
“You foolish people – how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Wasn’t it necessary for the Christ to SUFFER these things and enter into his glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things written about himself in all the scriptures.


Next He visited the Twelve​
44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it stands written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:44-47

F. Jesus revealed how His passion had been foretold and how it leads to the forgiveness of sin.

G. Corinth was a congregation of mixed Jews and Gentiles. Peter and Apollos as well as Paul taught there but there was no division in their message: 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18). It was equally disagreeable to the carnal minds of all.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
A. I have been arguing that very thing all along. Historically, no one, not even the Ante Nicene Fathers gave any indication that they thought there were TWO gospels. This idea did not see the light of day until 1800s when it was cooked up by an Anglican clergyman.

The translators of the KJV (1611), who had no dog in this fight, certainly believed that two different gospels were spoken by Paul here:

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me , as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (Gal.2:7;KJV).​

What I would like to know is if there is more than one gospel how come the plural form "gospelS" cannot be found? Instead it is always the singular "gospel"

The Greek word translated "gospel" means "good news" or "glad tidings." How would it be possible to make those meanings plural?

John taught only one gospel even by your definition. In 1 John 1:7 he wrote both that Christ's blood took away our sin and that He is the Son of God. (1 John 1:7)

I always have said that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period. The Hebrew epistles were written after the end of the Acts period. Now a question for you. Do you think that those in the Jerusalem church were taught what Paul says here?:

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal.3:24-25).​

If your answer is "yes" then tell me why the Jewish believers in Jerusalem remained "zealous of the law" and continued to partake of the ordinances of the Law of Moses?:

"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest , brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe ; and they are all zealous of the law" (Acts 21:20).

In 1 Co. 15 Paul is not saying he was the first to PREACH the message of the cross. He is saying he was the first one to preach this message TO THEM

I never said that the verses say that Paul was the first to preach that gospel message. But let us look at this verse:

"And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain" (Gal.2:2).​

In The Bible Knowledge Commentary written by the Dallas Seminary faculty we read Donald K. Campbell say that "there was one gospel though it was preached by different apostles to two distinct groups of people" (Walvoord & Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, 594).

However, on his commentary on Galatians 2:2 he turns around and says:

"Paul seized this oppurtunity to consult with the other apostles 'privately' connerning the message he was preaching to the Gentiles. This does not mean that Paul sought their approval of its truth and accuracy, for he had received the gospel from God by revelation. Rather, he wanted them to consider its relationship to the gospel they were proclaiming" [emphasis added] (Ibid., 593).​

If the gospel Paul preached among the Gentiles was the same gospel which he preached among the Jews then why would he need to go to Jerusalem in order to consider its relationship to the gospel which he had preached earlier in the company of some of the Apostles (Acts 9:27-29)? Of course there would be no reason for him to do that if the gospel which he earlier preached with other apostles was the same one that he was preaching to the Gentiles.

It seems to me that much of MAD doctrine is built upon what was NOT said in particular sermons even when elsewhere in the Bible the speaker evidences that he has the understanding of the missing doctrine.

Again, we have an uninterrupted sermon preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost beginning at Acts 2:14 and ending at Acts 2:36. In that sermon there is not a word about the purpose of the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross. Yet those who believed the gospel message which he preached that day were saved.

Do you deny that?

If your answer is "no" then we must believe that men were saved by hearing just a pert of the gospel. Is that what you believe, even though the Scriptures state that salvation comes as a result of believing the gospel and not just a part of the gospel.

Next He visited the Twelve[/CENTER]
44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it stands written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:44-47

Yes, their minds were opened to understand the REVEALED things in the OT Scriptures. But the gospel which Paul first preached was in regard to a "mystery" truth, or something kept secret and not revealed in the OT Scriptures:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past" (Ro.16:25).​

I have answered many of your points in this post so please return the favor and answer my points.
 
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godrulz

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There is a genitive issue in Gal. 2:7 KJV. If you look at Robertson, Wallace, Mounce (Greek masters), you will see that this proof text does not support MAD. Even in KJV, the context and wording exegetically does not support MAD (you are guilty of eisegesis).

All truth is not in one verse or sermon. Like KJVO, you hypocritically and selectively proof text something, while ignoring parallel issues with Paul that undermine your point.

MAD is a flawed paradigm.
 

Bright Raven

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There is a genitive issue in Gal. 2:7 KJV. If you look at Robertson, Wallace, Mounce (Greek masters), you will see that this proof text does not support MAD. Even in KJV, the context and wording exegetically does not support MAD (you are guilty of eisegesis).

All truth is not in one verse or sermon. Like KJVO, you hypocritically and selectively proof text something, while ignoring parallel issues with Paul that undermine your point.

MAD is a flawed paradigm.

Let us say that it is a doctrine that you do not like. Galatians 2:7 show the difference between the ministries of Peter and Paul, one to the Jews, the other to the Gentiles. A gospel to the circumcision and a gospel to the uncircumcision. For it has already been shown that the Jew was saved through repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38) and the Gentile through the DBR of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
There is a genitive issue in Gal. 2:7 KJV. If you look at Robertson, Wallace, Mounce (Greek masters), you will see that this proof text does not support MAD. Even in KJV, the context and wording exegetically does not support MAD (you are guilty of eisegesis).

The NASB translation has an asterisk at the word "to" in this verse:

"But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to* the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to* the circumcised" (Gal.2:7; NASB).​

At the two asterisks we read, "Literally, of the uncircumcision" and "Literally: of the circumcision."

MAD is a flawed paradigm.

Since you obviously believe that the present dispensation did not begin during the Mid Acts period then tell me what you think determined when the present stewardship or dispensation of grace began.
 
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