Is God Truly All Powerful?

[Clete]

Ok, I'll drop Einstein.

As for the rest of it, how can you assume that God did not create time along with everything else? It doesn't seem fair to assign restraints on a limitless, infinite, unfathomable God.

Because time is not a thing, like "everyTHING else".
And who said God is limitless? God cannot do the undoable (i.e. the absurd). He cannot go to a place that doesn't exist (like the past or the future for example), He cannot know what is unknowable, etc. God can do all that is doable that He wants to do. He doesn't have to do everything that He can do. For example God can be everywhere that exists simultaniously IF HE WANTS TO. He does not have to be somewhere He doesn't want to be (like the Lake of Fire for example). Nothing in the Bible suggests otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Lighthouse]

Ok, I'll drop Einstein.

As for the rest of it, how can you assume that God did not create time along with everything else? It doesn't seem fair to assign restraints on a limitless, infinite, unfathomable God.

Can God limit Himself?

 

[Caledvwlch]

There is time in heaven:
"And when he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

-Revelation 8:1​

Ok, cool. John was still a man. His perception would still be temporal at this point.

God changes His mind:
"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them."

-Jonah 3:10​

God does not know the future, exhaustively:
"And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

-Genesis 2:19​

This doesn't mean that God didn't already know what Adam would call them.

Also, don't forget that God tested Abraham's faith, by asking him to sacrafice Isaac. God did not know if Abraham would do it, or else the whole thing is an exercise in futility.

Again, this doesn't prove anything, other than God was testing Abraham. It was for Abraham's benefit, not for God's. God still knew he would make the right choice, otherwise he wouldn't have promised Abraham that his seed would be like the sands, etc.

 

[Caledvwlch]

Can God limit Himself?

Why would he?

 

[Lighthouse]

Ok, cool. John was still a man. His perception would still be temporal at this point.

:bang:

This doesn't mean that God didn't already know what Adam would call them.

Then why does it say, "to see what he would call them?" Huh?

Again, this doesn't prove anything, other than God was testing Abraham. It was for Abraham's benefit, not for God's. God still knew he would make the right choice, otherwise he wouldn't have promised Abraham that his seed would be like the sands, etc.

God knew that if Abraham were to actually go through with it, that He would stop him, as He did. But the fact that He had to test Abraham's faith shows that God did not know if Abraham would go through with it. You say that God knew that Abraham trusted Him, yet God tested Abraham to see if he did. If God knew, then why the need to prove it? Why would He have had to prove it to Abraham? As far as Abraham was concerned, he trusted the Lord. What purpose would the whole thing have served if God already knew what Abraham would do?

 

[Lighthouse]

Why would he?

That isn't the question. We can save that for later. Right now, I want to know if you think that God has the ability to limit Himself.

 

[Caledvwlch]

:bang:


Then why does it say, "to see what he would call them?" Huh?


God knew that if Abraham were to actually go through with it, that He would stop him, as He did. But the fact that He had to test Abraham's faith shows that God did not know if Abraham would go through with it. You say that God knew that Abraham trusted Him, yet God tested Abraham to see if he did. If God knew, then why the need to prove it? Why would He have had to prove it to Abraham? As far as Abraham was concerned, he trusted the Lord. What purpose would the whole thing have served if God already knew what Abraham would do?

Like I said. The testing was for Abraham's benefit, not for God's.

 

[Caledvwlch]

That isn't the question. We can save that for later. Right now, I want to know if you think that God has the ability to limit Himself.

Not really. Nor do I see that God would have the need to limit himself.

 

[Lighthouse]

Abraham did not need his faith prven to him, so your argument falls flat on it's face.

And why do you think the Omnipotent God is unable to limit Himself? Isn't He all powerful?

 

[Caledvwlch]

Abraham did not need his faith prven to him, so your argument falls flat on it's face.

And why do you think the Omnipotent God is unable to limit Himself? Isn't He all powerful?

Don't you think God's testing of Abraham made him stronger? Do you think God would have made a promise to Abraham, not knowing if it was really going to come true?

God limiting himself would be the same as God making Himself less powerful.

 

[Clete]

Like I said. The testing was for Abraham's benefit, not for God's.

The text says otherwise.

Genesis 22:12
And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

The text says that God now knew since (because) Abraham had not withheld his son from Him.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. This is where you say that Gen 22:12 is a figure of speech.

 

[Caledvwlch]

The text says otherwise.

Genesis 22:12
And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

The text says that God now knew since (because) Abraham had not withheld his son from Him.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. This is where you say that Gen 22:12 is a figure of speech.

No, you make a good point. But where I get shady is God's creatures claiming to know the nature of God well enough to limit Him to temporal constraints. The whole point of this disgusting episode was to make Abraham stronger in his faith.

 

[Caledvwlch]

I just realized something. The reason you guys don't like my theory is because it belies predestination. Why is that?

 

[Lighthouse]

Don't you think God's testing of Abraham made him stronger? Do you think God would have made a promise to Abraham, not knowing if it was really going to come true?

No, I don't. God knew He would keep His promise.:duh: But God also declared that He would destroy Nineveh, yet He repented of that, because they repented.

God limiting himself would be the same as God making Himself less powerful.

So? Is it within His power to limit Himself?

 

[Lighthouse]

The whole point of this disgusting episode was to make Abraham stronger in his faith.

Wrong.

 

[Caledvwlch]

No, I don't. God knew He would keep His promise.:duh: But God also declared that He would destroy Nineveh, yet He repented of that, because they repented.


So? Is it within His power to limit Himself?

That doesn't mean that God didn't know that Ninevah would repent.

If God limited himself, he would cease to be God. God is limitless, God does not limit himself. I don't understand why you're pushing the question. If God is limited, then he is not omnipotent, and therefore not God. If God is bound by time, then he is not omnipotent, and therefore not God. Just because this theory adds credence to predestination theory doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

[Lighthouse]

I just realized something. The reason you guys don't like my theory is because it belies predestination. Why is that?

:darwinsm:

Are you really that stupid?!

:darwinsm:

The idea that God does not know the unknowable future is the antithesis of exhaustive predestination! I do not beleive in exhaistive predestination, and neither do Clete or godrulz!

 

[Caledvwlch]

:darwinsm:

Are you really that stupid?!

:darwinsm:

The idea that God does not know the unknowable future is the antithesis of exhaustive predestination! I do not beleive in exhaistive predestination, and neither do Clete or godrulz!

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. You've answered all my questions. You set temporal constraints for your God, because you can't stomach the idea of predestination, but in doing so, you put limits on your God, and strip Him of His omnipotence.

 

[Lighthouse]

That doesn't mean that God didn't know that Ninevah would repent.

Yes, it does. He changed His mind. If He knew they would repent, His mind would have already been made up.

If God limited himself, he would cease to be God. God is limitless, God does not limit himself. I don't understand why you're pushing the question. If God is limited, then he is not omnipotent, and therefore not God. If God is bound by time, then he is not omnipotent, and therefore not God. Just because this theory adds credence to predestination theory doesn't mean it's wrong.

How do you know God does not limit Himself? Is the fact that He can not sin a limit? Did He place that limit on Himself? And time is not a thing that God can be bound by it.

I think I may have misunderstood. Which argument are you saying leans towards predestination?

 

[Caledvwlch]

Yes, it does. He changed His mind. If He knew they would repent, His mind would have already been made up.


How do you know God does not limit Himself? Is the fact that He can not sin a limit? Did He place that limit on Himself? And time is not a thing that God can be bound by it.

I think I may have misunderstood. Which argument are you saying leans towards predestination?

As far as God sinning, nothing God does is a sin, because God does it. It's not that God can't sin, he just defines what is and is not sin, therefore everything God does is not sin.