lost anomaly
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I would like to see the back-up too.
Is God temporal or atemporal?
- Thread starter God_Is_Truth
- Start date
I would like to see the back-up too.
lost anomaly
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I'm not usre I understand the question.
Lovejoy
Active member
That's because it does not make any sense
What I meant, if I understand myself, was: did God start the universe with the light of the stars already hitting the earth, with the galaxies already in motion, and the universe expanding. From our perspective, it should have taken billions of subjective years. Did it? Or did He start it in that shape already, so that we would perceive that this time has passed, when it had not?
lost anomaly
New member
Now I'm all confused. Forget I said anything.
Originally posted by Lovejoy
That's because it does not make any sense
What I meant, if I understand myself, was: did God start the universe with the light of the stars already hitting the earth, with the galaxies already in motion, and the universe expanding. From our perspective, it should have taken billions of subjective years. Did it? Or did He start it in that shape already, so that we would perceive that this time has passed, when it had not?
I don't think that one could come to any other conclusion than that the universe was created in a state of maturity. It wouldn't make sense to do it any other way. For example, Adam and Eve would have had basically nothing to eat without fruit bearing trees around. They would have gotten quite hungry having to wait until the seedlings grew to maturity. Also God brought all the animals to Adam to see what he would call them. I don't think that it would make any sense to think that all the animals were anything but fully mature adult specimens just as Adam and Eve themselves were.
Resting in Him,
Clete
BTW - That passage I just mentioned about God bringing the animals to Adam "to see what he would call them" is an interesting passage to ponder when discussing whether or not God can change or if He exists outside of time.
How would a statement about God having to see what would happen, fit into a view of God that has Him outside of time?
There are several passages of this nature in the Old Testement. I think its pretty safe to say that Moses did not think of God as existing outside of time.
geoff
New member
It seems to me that no one can prove that God much about this subject from Scripture.
Scripture doesnt provide a definitive teaching on the subject. We have a few statements in Scripture, and logic and reasoning to figure it out.
In regards to Genesis.
Scripture doesnt *say* time existed before creation.
Consider this simple arguement from logic.
If time exists for God prior to creation, when did God begin? God is infinite, having no beginning nor end. So then, how did God get from an infinite time ago to the point of creation? He cant do that, its illogical.
Some might say, well, we can take the point of creation and measure back infinity from there. But thats begging the point. God didnt begin at creation and go backwards an infinite succession of durations. If God is in time, He moved FORWARD an infinite succession of durations to the creation point.
Some might then so, Ok, God doesnt measure time like we do. Ok I can live with that, because to all intents and purposes, time as we know it doesnt exist for the eternal, pre-existant essence of God from whom creation sprung forth.
But then, they say, God, if He is timeless, can not relate to humanity, because we are in time. True. He cant. And only Trinitarian Deists have the answer to this. With creation, began the neccessity for measuring "durations" - or "successions". Thus we are told God called them day, and night.
With creation time began, time was not created. Time is the result of the creation of a universe.
In order to interact with His Creation, in fact, we find it visible in the act of creation, God manifests Himself in time in three ways, the Father/Creator, The Son/Word, and the Spirit/Power.
Thus God is out of time, but is *in* time in the form of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God is OMNItemporal. He occupies time and outside Time.
Scripture doesnt provide a definitive teaching on the subject. We have a few statements in Scripture, and logic and reasoning to figure it out.
In regards to Genesis.
Scripture doesnt *say* time existed before creation.
Consider this simple arguement from logic.
If time exists for God prior to creation, when did God begin? God is infinite, having no beginning nor end. So then, how did God get from an infinite time ago to the point of creation? He cant do that, its illogical.
Some might say, well, we can take the point of creation and measure back infinity from there. But thats begging the point. God didnt begin at creation and go backwards an infinite succession of durations. If God is in time, He moved FORWARD an infinite succession of durations to the creation point.
Some might then so, Ok, God doesnt measure time like we do. Ok I can live with that, because to all intents and purposes, time as we know it doesnt exist for the eternal, pre-existant essence of God from whom creation sprung forth.
But then, they say, God, if He is timeless, can not relate to humanity, because we are in time. True. He cant. And only Trinitarian Deists have the answer to this. With creation, began the neccessity for measuring "durations" - or "successions". Thus we are told God called them day, and night.
With creation time began, time was not created. Time is the result of the creation of a universe.
In order to interact with His Creation, in fact, we find it visible in the act of creation, God manifests Himself in time in three ways, the Father/Creator, The Son/Word, and the Spirit/Power.
Thus God is out of time, but is *in* time in the form of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God is OMNItemporal. He occupies time and outside Time.
God_Is_Truth
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geoff,
that actually makes pretty good sense.
that actually makes pretty good sense.
lost anomaly
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At least somebody is
philosophizer
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I agree. I but I think it's only a "mature" universe because that's what we want to call it. It's only because we've decided that it looks old. We look deep into space and see what looks like an expanding universe. And then we extrapolate some imagined "big bang" to explain why the universe looks like it's expanding. And then, since the big bang must have happened several billion years ago (judging by the expansion), then we begin to assume that the universe must look old. And then we ask why God created a new universe that looks so deceptively old. But really, we only think that because we've already decided that universal expansion assures a big bang and that must have happened a very long time ago. It's a very backwards logic.
geoff
New member
Fact is, we dont know how long it was from creation to the fall. There is no specified time. Also, Adam was sinless, and living in a body that should have been "eternal" - I expect time didnt pass the same for him as it does for us. Our life expectancy is say 70 years. We get to 40, and the days go past so quick. Imagine how fast and insignificant a day is when you are 400, or 900, or 1500 years old.
God_Is_Truth
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perhaps this should be a new thread in the general theology forum?
God_Is_Truth
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that's alright guys. just didn't want us too off topic for too long
Time is succession, duration, sequence. It is not a thing nor a place. It is an aspect of any personal beings experience, including God.
'Eternal Now' is a philosophical concept from ?Philo to Augustine to Calvin, etc. Timelessness is illogical.
God experiences an endless duration of time (eternity) with no beginning and no ending. This is a requirement of will, intellect, emotions, acts, etc.
The present exists, the past is fixed, and the future is not yet (even for God).
'Eternal Now' is a philosophical concept from ?Philo to Augustine to Calvin, etc. Timelessness is illogical.
God experiences an endless duration of time (eternity) with no beginning and no ending. This is a requirement of will, intellect, emotions, acts, etc.
The present exists, the past is fixed, and the future is not yet (even for God).
lost anomaly
New member
Unless everything is predestined then the future is .
