IRS Admits Targeting Conservative Groups; Apologizes

serpentdove

serpentdove

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[IRS Admits Targeting Conservative Groups; Apologizes by Stephen Ohlemacher] "Washington (AP) — The Internal Revenue Service apologized Friday for what it acknowledged was "inappropriate" targeting of conservative political groups during the 2012 election to see if they were violating their tax-exempt status.

IRS agents singled out dozens of organizations for additional reviews because they included the words "tea party" or "patriot" in their exemption applications, said Lois Lerner, who heads the IRS division that oversees tax-exempt groups. In some cases, groups were asked for lists of donors, which violates IRS policy in most cases, she said.

The agency — led at the time by a Bush administration appointee — blamed low-level employees, saying no high-level officials were aware. But that wasn't good enough for Republicans in Congress, who are conducting several investigations and asked for more.

"I call on the White House to conduct a transparent, government-wide review aimed at assuring the American people that these thuggish practices are not under way at the IRS or elsewhere in the administration against anyone, regardless of their political views," said Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky..." Full text: IRS Admits Targeting Conservative Groups; Apologizes :Nineveh: Am 8:5, Re 13:17 more
 
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99lamb

99lamb

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How's about getting to the bottom of the story.
Whoever did for whatever reason target a group because of their political affiliations be held accountable and fired or imprisoned.
Although, I would really like to see the abolishment of the IRS, and the implementation of a sales tax, just saying...
 
99lamb

99lamb

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This Charming Manc
Nice to see you put far right wings politics above the teaching of Jesus and the bible.

Matthew 22:17-21

Romans 13:1-7

Learn to distinguish between what the world teaches and what Jesus teaches.
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Are all governments set up or ordained of God?
Usually this line of questioning is asked to see the response to a government run by (pick your despot):Lenin, Stalin, Mao....
Taxation is confiscatory, it becomes a burden at some point. Rather than require the government to be more fiscally responsible, the government continually asks the people to yield more of their incomes to government. But where is the oversight, where is the accounting to see where the money is spent. Unless you think the government can spend your money better and more responsibly than you; it is best to restrict the taxing ability of any government, thus the sales tax.Tax too much and sales drop government revenue drops.
Today what self regulating restrictions are in place for the government with regard to taxation?
As an example look at the results of burdensome taxation and the flight of money:New York for example, over taxation extremely high property taxes, the result N.Y residences leave to relocate to states like Florida. The U.K wanted to raise taxes on millionaires the result millionaires leave, they go where they can keep their money.
 
This Charming Manc

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
Broadly speaking there are two arguments here;

Are high taxes good policy? This is a political argument but is not moral and doesn't relate to scripture, its just good housekeeping and financial policy. We may have different positions on this but your welcome to yours and I won't moralise at you about it.

I think we would agree on principles, but draw the balance lines in very different places.

Then there is the claim that 'tax is theft' and 'immoral', which make claim on the authority of God and scripture. here I think the argument of the extreme right is woefully lacking and their claims in direct contradiction to scripture.

When the NT talks about paying tax that is to the Roman regime, which on any scale is much more un Godly and anti Christian than western regime in power at the moment.

Paul's writings in Romans were at best a few short years away from vicious and evil persecution of the Christian church.

The situation at the time the bible was written was much worse than now and neither Jesus nor Paul decided to have a crack at the Roman tax system in the way the current Christian right does.


99lamb said:
Are all governments set up or ordained of God?
Usually this line of questioning is asked to see the response to a government run by (pick your despot):Lenin, Stalin, Mao....
Taxation is confiscatory, it becomes a burden at some point. Rather than require the government to be more fiscally responsible, the government continually asks the people to yield more of their incomes to government. But where is the oversight, where is the accounting to see where the money is spent. Unless you think the government can spend your money better and more responsibly than you; it is best to restrict the taxing ability of any government, thus the sales tax.Tax too much and sales drop government revenue drops.
Today what self regulating restrictions are in place for the government with regard to taxation?
As an example look at the results of burdensome taxation and the flight of money:New York for example, over taxation extremely high property taxes, the result N.Y residences leave to relocate to states like Florida. The U.K wanted to raise taxes on millionaires the result millionaires leave, they go where they can keep their money.
Click to expand...
 
99lamb

99lamb

New member
This Charming Manc
Broadly speaking there are two arguments here;

Are high taxes good policy? This is a political argument but is not moral and doesn't relate to scripture, its just good housekeeping and financial policy. We may have different positions on this but your welcome to yours and I won't moralise at you about it.

I think we would agree on principles, but draw the balance lines in very different places.
Click to expand...
I guess then, we are at a point of saying 'What is fair' and 'how much of one's income are they allowed to keep?'
Then there is the claim that 'tax is theft' and 'immoral', which make claim on the authority of God and scripture. here I think the argument of the extreme right is woefully lacking and their claims in direct contradiction to scripture.

When the NT talks about paying tax that is to the Roman regime, which on any scale is much more un Godly and anti Christian than western regime in power at the moment.

Paul's writings in Romans were at best a few short years away from vicious and evil persecution of the Christian church.

The situation at the time the bible was written was much worse than now and neither Jesus nor Paul decided to have a crack at the Roman tax system in the way the current Christian right does
Click to expand...
.

True, and I sometimes forget my bias, as one who is American, and sees the founding of this country based on individual liberties, sees 'No Taxation without Representation' as having moral underpinnings,and not just a political slogan.
 
xAvarice

xAvarice

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IRS should target everyone. If they get around to conservatives now, so what - if they didn't do anything, who cares?
 
B

bybee

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xAvarice said:
IRS should target everyone. If they get around to conservatives now, so what - if they didn't do anything, who cares?
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Apparently you have not been subjected to a malicious IRS audit?
Several years back we were put through an audit wherein for over two months an IRS agent camped at a desk in our place of business and went through everything including waste baskets!
He pointed his finger at my husband and stated in the presence of our CPA and our employees "I'm going to take you down!" He proceeded to fine us thousands of dollars and audited our children and our employees. Our son was in college and he was fined a small amount but it was the harrassment factor that was so awful.
For three years these tactics continued and then abruptly stopped.
IRS employees have the power to destroy anyone against whom they have a personal vendetta...and they have and they do!
 
C

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
Tinark said:
And putting someone in prison is legalized kidnapping. Giving someone the death penalty is legalized murder.

Using loaded terms doesn't help advance the discussion.
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Putting someone in prison who has not harmed anyone else is indeed legalized kidnapping. Same with execution, of course.

Those who have harmed others, on the other hand, do deserve punishment for violating the rights of other people.

Taxation is, quite literally, the taking of productivity at gunpoint. I don't understand how you can call that anything other than "Theft" unless you either justify the taxation, or give government the power to take anything it wants.

I don't wnat to live in that second society, even though I already do. I'd be interested in how you'd justify it for some purposes but not others.

@Charming Maniac- Paul clearly was not talking about most governments in Romans 13, but an ideal one, most governments do NOT act in the good of their subjects. Jesus did indeed say "Render unto Caesar" while being totally unclear about what/how much actually belongs to Caesar. I think the idea that Caesar just gets to define it questionable at the very least. The Bible also CLEARLY states that any governmetn who takes 10% or more of anyone's income is a tyrant (1 Samuel 8).

I think the Bible does indeed teach that, at least in certain circumstances, Christians should submit to taxation. That's not the same thing as justifying it. Its still theft.
 
C

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
I'm not 100% certain Paul wasn't subtley suggesting that Christians should disobey the Roman government (Which he couldn't have openly stated) although I highly doubt taxes was his focus.

Jesus said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render to God what is God's." If God owns everything, which he does, what's left for Caesar? I don't honestly know the answer.

I'm not a radical "Never obey government" type (Even though I DO pretty much think everything they do is immoral/legalized crime, I recognize that disobeying everything government does would ruin our witness, for one thing) but I do think some Christians assume they have some sort of legitimacy for basically everything because of a few proof texts, when the Bible is FULL of civil disobedience against government, even in some circumstances where there is no specific command of God's being broken by obedience.

(Although I'm using a very precise definition of "Specific" here, most, although possibly not all, cases where believers disobey the government in the Bible, there is at least a vague Biblical principle being violated by obedience.)

BTW: I'm not "Extreme right" on the one dimensional metric. "More right than left" is the closest of the TOL options, but not really accurate. I'm ideologically supportive of anarcho-capitalism, but don't believe it can actually work, so I support minarchist libertarianism as a viable, close enough alternative.
 
Nick M

Nick M

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All true, but this isn't exactly news. This is the most corrupt government in American history. They do not have America's interets at heart. They are trying to destroy it. As already told over and over and over. They target any group that is conservative, tea party, constitutionalists, everything right and good. He profanes Government in inbelievable ways.
 
The Barbarian

The Barbarian

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It's not surprising that a Bush appointee would abuse his power. Remember that federal prosecutors were expected by the Bush WH to use their discretionary power "loyally."

WASHINGTON, March 13 — Late in the afternoon on Dec. 4, a deputy to Harriet E. Miers, then the White House counsel and one of President Bush’s most trusted aides, sent a two-line e-mail message to a top Justice Department aide. “We’re a go,” it said, approving a long-brewing plan to remove seven federal prosecutors considered weak or not team players.

The message, from William K. Kelley of the White House counsel’s office to D. Kyle Sampson, the chief of staff to Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, put in motion a plan to fire United States attorneys that had been hatched 22 months earlier by Ms. Miers. Three days later, the seven prosecutors were summarily dismissed. An eighth had been forced out in the summer.

The documents provided by the Justice Department add some new details to the chronicle of the fired prosecutors but leave many critical questions unanswered, including the nature of discussions inside the White House and the level of knowledge and involvement by the president and his closest political aide, Karl Rove...

In rating the prosecutors, Mr. Sampson factored in whether they “exhibited loyalty to the president and attorney general,” according to documents released by the Justice Department.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/14/washington/14justice.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&

Given the moral climate in which this person was hired and judged, it might be that he believed he should be considering political factors in his job.

Might be time for the president to see how many other Bush holdovers have the same ideas.
 
C

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
Nick M said:
All true, but this isn't exactly news. This is the most corrupt government in American history. They do not have America's interets at heart. They are trying to destroy it. As already told over and over and over. They target any group that is conservative, tea party, constitutionalists, everything right and good. He profanes Government in inbelievable ways.
Click to expand...
The government has ALWAYS hated the Ron Paul movement, of course, and has always been attacking it. Whoever is in power.
 
The Barbarian

The Barbarian

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You can't expect government to love someone who wants to trim it way back. I don't agree with Paul on everything, but we need people like him, just because government tends to expand and become corrupt.
 
B

bybee

New member
The Barbarian said:
It's not surprising that a Bush appointee would abuse his power. Remember that federal prosecutors were expected by the Bush WH to use their discretionary power "loyally."

WASHINGTON, March 13 — Late in the afternoon on Dec. 4, a deputy to Harriet E. Miers, then the White House counsel and one of President Bush’s most trusted aides, sent a two-line e-mail message to a top Justice Department aide. “We’re a go,” it said, approving a long-brewing plan to remove seven federal prosecutors considered weak or not team players.

The message, from William K. Kelley of the White House counsel’s office to D. Kyle Sampson, the chief of staff to Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, put in motion a plan to fire United States attorneys that had been hatched 22 months earlier by Ms. Miers. Three days later, the seven prosecutors were summarily dismissed. An eighth had been forced out in the summer.

The documents provided by the Justice Department add some new details to the chronicle of the fired prosecutors but leave many critical questions unanswered, including the nature of discussions inside the White House and the level of knowledge and involvement by the president and his closest political aide, Karl Rove...

In rating the prosecutors, Mr. Sampson factored in whether they “exhibited loyalty to the president and attorney general,” according to documents released by the Justice Department.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/14/washington/14justice.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&

Given the moral climate in which this person was hired and judged, it might be that he believed he should be considering political factors in his job.

Might be time for the president to see how many other Bush holdovers have the same ideas.
Click to expand...

Definition of a liberal: Still blaming former President Bush for all of the deficiencies of the Obama regime!
 
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