Interaction with perfect foreknowledge?

[godrulz]

Will do? Much of Revelation is written in the past tense.

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Some examples of past tense? Is it fulfilled, or yet future?


The key to interpreting the book of Revelation is 1:19

i) What you have seen (Rev. 1= who Jesus is)

ii) What is now (Rev. 2; 3 = historical churches, not church ages)

iii) What will take place later (Rev. 4-22 = yet future to John and even us)

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Will do? Much of Revelation is written in the past tense.

those things have not already happened have they? no, because an event only takes place one time. the definition of an event rules out it happening more than once. now you can have an event take place more than one time, but what you really have are two events that are identical. but there is no good reason to think that the events of revelation have happened yet. they are yet to come. for John who was seeing them though, he was able to use past tense in many areas because it was for him as if they had already occurred.

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

it is a book of prophecy, stating that which God will do, just like the book of Jonah was a prophetic book.

 

[godrulz]

those things have not already happened have they? no, because an event only takes place one time. the definition of an event rules out it happening more than once. now you can have an event take place more than one time, but what you really have are two events that are identical. but there is no good reason to think that the events of revelation have happened yet. they are yet to come. for John who was seeing them though, he was able to use past tense in many areas because it was for him as if they had already occurred.



it is a book of prophecy, stating that which God will do, just like the book of Jonah was a prophetic book.

Remember that some prophecies are unconditional vs conditional, or declarative vs predictive. Much of Revelation is what God will bring to pass, and thus known.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

God_Is_Truth: during his time on earth, Jesus spoke of many things that were near and all of them (i think) came to pass during the lives of the apostles. why should we think revelation was suddenly meant to be taken differently?

Because Jesus said he was going away for a long time? Mt. 24:48; 25:5,19...

Lee: How can "these things" actually mean an intent? Especially when the first is plural, and the second is singular. And this is an odd way to say "this intent," in any case...

God_Is_Truth: because revelation is what God is intending, right now, to do to those who do not repent of evil.

That is the conclusion! But still this does not address my question, how can "these things" mean an intent? Because your conclusion requires it is not a reason that I shall be convinced by...

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent...

Lee: So if they repent, then we erase this verse? It wasn't written?

God_Is_Truth: the kindness of God is what leads us to repentence (Romans 2:4). thus, the opposite of that, God's destruction, would lead us away from kindness.

But we can't have a verse that predicts "no repentance" being conditional, I don't think that will do. "They did not repent" must come true, or we must erase it.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[STONE]

Some examples of past tense?

I am a bit surprised by your question which begs the obvious. Are you implying you don't know about the existence of past tense in Revelation?

The key to interpreting the book of Revelation is 1:19
i) What you have seen (Rev. 1= who Jesus is)

ii) What is now (Rev. 2; 3 = historical churches, not church ages)

iii) What will take place later (Rev. 4-22 = yet future to John and even us)

Actually the holy spirit is the key.

 

[godrulz]

I am a bit surprised by your question which begs the obvious. Are you implying you don't know about the existence of past tense in Revelation?



Actually the holy spirit is the key.

Refresh my memory as to what past tense verses you are referring to.

If Jesus interprets a parable (which He often did), then that becomes a key to interpretation. The Holy Spirit inspired Scripture. The fact that hundreds of millions of believers have the Holy Spirit yet have divergent views on Bible interpretation, shows that hermeneutics is as spiritual as saying the Holy Spirit is the key. The Holy Spirit does inspire the revelation, but this does not negate Paul's inspired ideas to study to show ourselves approved and to search the Scriptures diligently. I am Pentecostal. We emphasize the person and work of the Holy Spirit (not holy spirit...are you a JW?). Yet, there are many Pentecostal sects and denominations that do not agree on every verse or doctrine. Spirit + Word (and interpretation principles). It is both/and, not either/or.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Hi everyone,
Because Jesus said he was going away for a long time? Mt. 24:48; 25:5,19...

he was gone for three days. was that a long time? Paul certainly believed that Jesus's return would be in his lifetime. many passages speak of needing to be patient because his return would soon come.

That is the conclusion! But still this does not address my question, how can "these things" mean an intent? Because your conclusion requires it is not a reason that I shall be convinced by...

i don't think i understand your objection.

But we can't have a verse that predicts "no repentance" being conditional, I don't think that will do. "They did not repent" must come true, or we must erase it.

the "no repentence" isn't conditional. i'm saying that because repentence requires divine assistance, God can declare a point at which he will not help them repent (as in revelation) and thus say assuredly that they will not repent. they won't repent because they cannot repent. God will not help them during his judgement.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi God_Is_Truth,

Lee: Because Jesus said he was going away for a long time? Mt. 24:48; 25:5,19...

God_Is_Truth: Paul certainly believed that Jesus's return would be in his lifetime. many passages speak of needing to be patient because his return would soon come.

Were you thinking of James 5:7-8? There is that thread in Scripture, but there is another one, too! As in the parable of the unjust judge:

Luke 18:7-8 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

So we can't abandon either aspect, we wait patiently, and expect him momentarily! We'll see how this all works out...

Lee: But still this does not address my question, how can "these things" mean an intent?

God_Is_Truth: i don't think i understand your objection.

Well, I meant this verse here:

Revelation 22:6 The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Now "trustworthy and true" must be "these words," referring clearly to what is being said, not to an intent behind them! So these words must be sure, this cannot be simply a firm intent, barring repentance.

God_Is_Truth: the "no repentence" isn't conditional. i'm saying that because repentence requires divine assistance, God can declare a point at which he will not help them repent...

Yes, I do believe this is unconditional, glad to agree!

Blessings,
Lee

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Hi God_Is_Truth,
Were you thinking of James 5:7-8? There is that thread in Scripture, but there is another one, too! As in the parable of the unjust judge:

Luke 18:7-8 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

So we can't abandon either aspect, we wait patiently, and expect him momentarily! We'll see how this all works out...

i was thinking more of the pasages like this

1 Thessalonians 4
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

where Paul clearly includes himself in the group of those who might still be here when Jesus returns.

James 5:7-8 suggests a similar idea though.

Well, I meant this verse here:

Revelation 22:6 The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Now "trustworthy and true" must be "these words," referring clearly to what is being said, not to an intent behind them! So these words must be sure, this cannot be simply a firm intent, barring repentance.

the words are true, yes. but also recall that the prophecy regarding ninevah was true up until the point at which they repented. before that point, it was absolutely true that God was going to destroy them. it is the same way with revelation. right now the words are true. but, if everyone repented tomorrow, God would save them and not bring the judgement he had planned (Jer 18)

Yes, I do believe this is unconditional, glad to agree!

 

[elected4ever]

i was thinking more of the pasages like this

1 Thessalonians 4
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

where Paul clearly includes himself in the group of those who might still be here when Jesus returns.

James 5:7-8 suggests a similar idea though.

Well, I meant this verse here:

Revelation 22:6 The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."



the words are true, yes. but also recall that the prophecy regarding ninevah was true up until the point at which they repented. before that point, it was absolutely true that God was going to destroy them. it is the same way with revelation. right now the words are true. but, if everyone repented tomorrow, God would save them and not bring the judgement he had planned (Jer 18)

How does God's foreknowledge prevent the freedom of choice?

 

[godrulz]

i was thinking more of the pasages like this

1 Thessalonians 4
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

where Paul clearly includes himself in the group of those who might still be here when Jesus returns.

James 5:7-8 suggests a similar idea though.

How does God's foreknowledge prevent the freedom of choice?

In the case of the First or Second Coming, God's foreknowledge does not prevent freedom of choice. Regardless what man does or does not do, He incarnated and He will return. This reason He can know this is because of His ability to determine it and bring it to pass (Is. 46:9-11 and 48:3 ABILITY vs foreknowledge= declare end/beginning). Your error is to extrapolate this to mean that He predestines and foreknows all moral and mundane choices exhaustively.

There are 2 motifs in Scripture: some of the future is settled/known, but some of the future is unsettled/open/uncertain. You cannot proof text the former and rationalize away the latter texts.

 

[elected4ever]

In the case of the First or Second Coming, God's foreknowledge does not prevent freedom of choice. Regardless what man does or does not do, He incarnated and He will return. This reason He can know this is because of His ability to determine it and bring it to pass (Is. 46:9-11 and 48:3 ABILITY vs foreknowledge= declare end/beginning). Your error is to extrapolate this to mean that He predestines and foreknows all moral and mundane choices exhaustively.

There are 2 motifs in Scripture: some of the future is settled/known, but some of the future is unsettled/open/uncertain. You cannot proof text the former and rationalize away the latter texts.

Ephesians 1:4 *According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 *Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 *In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Romans 8:28 *And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 *¶For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 *Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

How does God's foreknowledge prevent the freedom of choice?

because freedom depends on contingency and exhaustive foreknowledge of a closed future eliminates all contingency from the world.

 

[godrulz]

Ephesians 1:4 *According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 *Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 *In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Romans 8:28 *And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 *¶For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 *Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Corporate election and Church issues cannot be extrapolated to exhaustive foreknowledge of all future moral and mundane free will contingencies. These proof texts apply to the motif of things that God does predetermine and settle by His ability. They say nothing about whether I will eat steak or hotdogs ten years from now, and whether God knows or cares about this.

 

[lee_merrill]

because freedom depends on contingency and exhaustive foreknowledge of a closed future eliminates all contingency from the world.

Then God will not know all about choices in heaven? Even within the Trinity? Even about major choices? For it would not be much good to only have incidental choices be free, and not major ones.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Then God will not know all about choices in heaven? Even within the Trinity? Even about major choices? For it would not be much good to only have incidental choices be free, and not major ones.

Blessings,
Lee

not really sure what you're asking here, Lee.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi God_Is_Truth,

Well, if knowledge removes freedom, then God must not know about major choices in heaven, if those choices are to be free, and this must apply to major choices within the Trinity as well.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Hi God_Is_Truth,

Well, if knowledge removes freedom, then God must not know about major choices in heaven, if those choices are to be free, and this must apply to major choices within the Trinity as well.

Blessings,
Lee

it's not the knowledge that's the problem. it's what is in the knowledge. if God foreknows that the entire future is a done deal, then there is no freedom because there is no contingency. however, if God foreknows an open future, then freedom is preserved.

I, for one, believe there is still freedom in heaven. that being so, i don't believe all decisions are already made. i think heaven itself is set-up, but there are plenty of things left undecided.

 

[lee_merrill]

I, for one, believe there is still freedom in heaven. that being so, i don't believe all decisions are already made. i think heaven itself is set-up, but there are plenty of things left undecided.

Yes, I agree, only there is a difficulty if God does not know such decisions, especially major ones, especially within the Trinity...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Yes, I agree, only there is a difficulty if God does not know such decisions, especially major ones, especially within the Trinity...

Blessings,
Lee

can you give an example of what you mean?