Where does it say all Jewish believers are BAPTIZED into the B O C , give me a verse ??
Or explain Gal 3:28 OR Col 3:11 ??
dan p
ECT In Christ Before Me
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Where does it say all Jewish believers are BAPTIZED into the B O C , give me a verse ??
Or explain Gal 3:28 OR Col 3:11 ??
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In case you didn't notice it Paul never said only a part of the middle wall was broken down. The whole wall of partition was broken down and all of the Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ.
Not just "some" of them, as you imagine! You still have not addressed that fact.
The problem with people like Jerry is not so much that they are of the previous generation within Mid-Acts - but that they remain ever stuck in the findings (but also) remaining lack of clarity on other aspects, that men like Anderson; O'Hair; Baker; and Stam et al, had not been able to go further with, being that time robs all men of any more time on this earth further exploring and ever further refining their understandings to even greater clsrity on one thing or another; their unfinished labor left to a next generation to carry even further, 2 Tim. 2:2.
As a result, people like Jerry are simply ill-equipped to go forward from those who came before them.
One can not grow through relying on books about. Books, as the following one will show, have their use; but one needs to invest even more time in the Scripture Itself, Isaiah 8:20; Acts 17: 11, 12.
Thus, Jerry's failed, odd views.
Thus, the odd views also of others and their followers within Mid-Acts.
But much more has been recovered about the differences between The Israel of God, and the Body - beyond what those men of 50 plus years ago recovered.
Case in point, the following book written by the late Keith Blades.
He based it on much that Richard Jordan recovered some 30 or 40 years ago, far beyond those great, key, foundational distinctions recovered by O'Hair; Baker; and Stam.
The book goes into the more advanced distinctions between how God's plan and purpose for the Earth through the Israel of God works / will work, in contrast to how His plan and purpose for the Heavens through His New Creature: the Body of Christ, will.
I have yet to run accross a better book out there on how both those two realms work, and the Advesary's role in attempting to thwart both, and who is in which of God's Two Agencies.
"This book is a synopsis of what the Bible teaches about Satan and his activities, both in heaven and on earth, as he seeks to succeed with his plan of evil. It traces the history of Satan’s plan from it’s inception, and provides you with a concise understanding of what it entails, how he is working it out, and the effects that it has. Along with this, God’s response to the plan of evil is examined. God has His own plan for dealing with Satan and to provide for the demolition of the plan of evil. God’s plan is centered in His creation of the nation Israel, and His formation of the new creation, the church the body of Christ, in this present mystery dispensation. You will learn the role God has for these two distinct entities, and how He will use them as He settles His contention with Satan."
The book is 369 pages and costs only $15 but is worth far much more than that.
http://www.forgottentruths.com/satanandhisplanofevil.aspx
Respectfully, Jerry, until you get yourself a copy of that book and read it, you really have nothing to say of any real merit on who was / was not in the Body in the 1st Century.
The Body is neither a continuation of the Twelve and the Israel of God, nor a replacement of it.
It is a different agency.
You...are...severely...confused.
Til you arrive at the needed clarity on this Two-Fold Distinction - Rom. 14: 5 towards you - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
For, per the Words of the Lord to each of us through our supposed Apostle Paul in...
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Get that book, Jerry.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Hebrew epistles were written and received during the present dispensation. If the doctrine found in those epistles is not for the present dispensation then those who received those epistles would have been told that it is not for the present dispensation.
The Hebrew epistles will be searched in vain for any instance where the author tells his hearers that the doctrine is not for the present dispensation but instead for a future one.
Perhaps that issue is addressed in the book?
Hi Jerry and I see 5 reasons why the Jews do not accept what Paul has written !!
#1 One is that Israel has been set aside !!
#2, It is very clear in 2 Cor 3:13-15 why , is that there is a VAIL upon their HEARTS , verse 14 !!
#3 And in verse 15 it says , But UNTIL THIS DAY which EMPHATIC in the Greek , a covering lies upon their heart !!
#4 In Rom 11:8 Just as it HAS BEEN WRITTEN and is in Greek PERFECT TENSE which means that the Jews , from Mt Sinai UNTIL Rom 11:26 , have been given the Spirit of STUPOR , eyes to see not and ears to hear not , UNTIL THIS DAY , or in Paul's time of ministry !!
#5, The last one is in 2 Peter 3:15-16 , Peter says , hath written unto you and I believe that was HEBREWS !!
And Paul's writings are HARD to understand , and the Jews were Un-learned and WREST AS also the other scriptures unto their own destruction !!
Of course I am partial to what R C Brock wrote about being " in Christ ".
dan p
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Jerry has often made obvious what's behind these blinder-blender-blunders of his - his obvious tendency to "search the Scriptures in vain."
Per, Hebrews 5, there is no reasoning with such an individual.
He'll have to wait "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" Rom. 11:25.
Literally...
Until then, he is obviously married hook; line; sinker; and kitchen sink, to the erroneous notion that The Mystery; its' One Apostle; and its' Body...are somehow some sort of a continuation, if not replacement, of Prophecy's the Twelve, and their converts; the Believing Remnant of Israel the Lord had PROPHESIED - NOT KEPT SECRET - He would form a new PHYSICAL nation OF ISRAEL out of, Matt. 21:43; Matt. 19:28; Luke 12: 32; Acts 2:44-47; Rom. 11:5-7; etc.
Obviously, blindness in part...is happened to Jerry.
"Search in vain" then, Jerry.
I'm certain you mean well, in there, somewhere...
Rom. 5: 6-8.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"Run in vain" then Danoh,
You can run but you cannot hide from the verses found in the Hebrew epistles where those who received those epistles were taught to be expecting an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ:
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).
The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:
"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).
Of course you are so uninformed that you remain ignorant about the facts concerning the rapture because only those in the Body were waiting for this imminent appearance of the Lord. But Paul Sadler, past President of the Berean Bible Society, understood that only members of the Body will be caught up at the rapture:
"The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).
If you understood the truths concerning the rapture you would understand immediately that those who received the Hebrew epistles were members of the Body of Christ because they were taught that the appreance of the Lord is imminent. We can also understand that John was telling those who received his epistles that when the Lord appears that they would see Him as He is and they would be made like Him:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
John told these believers that they were expecting to see the Lord Jesus appear while they remained alive and they were expecting that at His appearance they would be made like Him. The only appearance when living saints will put on new bodies is the rapture and in the following passage Paul speaks of that appearance which was a mystery truth:
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).
If you were not so ignorant of the truths surrounding the rapture you would know immediately that the saints who received John's epistles were waiting for the rapture so they were members of the Body of Christ. And we can also see the truth that those who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting to put on new, glorious bodies like the Lord's glorious body:
"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed...And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away" (1 Pet.5:1,4).
This mirrors what Paul told other members of the Body of Christ:
"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).
Both of these epistles, 1 Peter and Colossians, were written within ten years of each other so common sense dictates that BOTH groups were waiting for the same appearance which they were told was imminent and both groups were expecting that they would be alive when their bodies were changed into glorious bodies.
But if you are right one group was waiting for a different appearance than the other group. And that makes no sense at all!
Your knowledge of the details concerning the rapture is practically zero so you are unable to even understand that both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers were members of the Body of Christ and both groups were expecting to have their bodies changed while they remained alive.
Go study and find out all you can about the rapture and then if you think that you can prove me wrong then I would be interested in what you have to say. And while you are at it perhaps you can actually deal with the following which you ignored in my last post addressed to you:
It is a fact that the middle wall of partition has been broken down and both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers have been reconciled unto God in one Body, the Body of Christ:
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).
Paul speaks of two different groups here, the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers. And there is not even a hint that only some of the Jewish believers is in view but according to your uninformed ideas the wall still stands between some of the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers. Are you going to continue to run and hide from these facts?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Dan, the subject we are discussing is about the Jews who did believe and not the ones who didn't believe.
It is clear that Jerry has decades invested in his erroneous conclusion that decades wasted in comparing the writings of men with the writings of men; picking and choosing as one goes, is "Bible study."
:chuckle:
Isaiah 8:20.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Among them include John, James and Peter, three autors of NT epistles.
Hi Jerry and I must have missed when they were saved in the Dispensation of the Grace of God ??
Where are those verses ??
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Dan, you have a short memory and seem unable to learn anything at all.
Apollos was saved in the prior dispensation but yet he is a member of the Body.
1 John 2 KJV
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
JerryS:If what is said in John's first epistle was for a future dispensation then John would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation." The last time is now, as the antichrist is not for some future dispensation-He is here now!!!!!!!
1 John 2 KJV
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Hebrews 9 KJV
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
If what is said in John's first epistle, and in Hebrews, was for a future dispensation then John, the author of Hebrews, would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation." The Lord Jesus Christ's second coming is not for a future dispensation-it already occurred in the dispensation we are now in!!!!!Didn't you read about it, in "Preterist Weekly?"
Hebrews 1 KJV
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
James 5 KJV
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
1 Peter 1 KJV
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1 KJV
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
JerryS:If what is said in the author of Hebrews' epistle, in James' epistle, in Peter's epistle, was for a future dispensation then the author of Hebrews, James, Peter, would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation." The last days, the last time(s), are now, in this dispensation, not the future!!!!!!!!!!!!
Genesis 3:15 KJV
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
JerryS:
If what is said in Genesis 3:15 KJV was for a future dispensation, perhaps thousands of years in the future, then the author of Genesis would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation."
Joel 3:14 KJV Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
JerryS:If what is said in Joel was for a future dispensation then the author of Joel would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation." The day of the Lord has already happened!!
Zephaniah 1:14 KJV The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
JerryS:If what is said in Zephaniah was for a future dispensation then the author of Zephaniah would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation."The great day of the Lord has already happened!!!
Revelation 21 KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
JerryS:If what is said in Revelation, by John, was for a future dispensation then John would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation." There is no more death now!!!There are no more tears now!!!There is no more sorrow now!!!There is no more crying now!!! There is no pain now!!! We are in the new heaven and new earth now!!!!
Puh rayzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawd!!!
You cannot be this stupid of a bible blender....I take that back.
Hi Jerry , how were John , James and Peter saved ?
Gives verses ??
Then explain How Paul was saved ??
dan p
Another use of the phrase "in Christ" by Paul that also does NOT refer to being in the Body.
Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
But, some insist on the wooden literalness by which they blind themselves to seeing the whole of many a thing.
It is what it is...
Rom. 5: 6-8.
Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
But, some insist on the wooden literalness by which they blind themselves to seeing the whole of many a thing.
It is what it is...
Rom. 5: 6-8.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What's your point?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I suspected that you were a preterist and I know that you are now!
Innerplanner finally convinced you that he is right!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is you who is employing a wooden literalness because you can't even understand the deeper meaning of what John says here:
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in (en) his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).
Here the word "in" is translated from the Greek word en and in this case that word means "in the interior of some whole" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
The Apostle John tells these believers that their lives are in the Son. Not by the Son but instead IN THE SON. And that can only be said of those in the Body of Christ:
"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).
This speaks of the Christian's total identification with the Lord Jesus, a truth which is true for only those who are in the Body of Christ. Our life which is in Christ is the same thing spoken of in the following passage:
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:1-4).
The Christian has been given eternal life, and "this life is in the Son"..."Christ is our life" and our "your life is hid with Christ in God." These verses are in regard to a total identification with the Lord Jesus and speak of our "position" in Christ, being risen with Christ and being seated with Him in heavenly places. That is what Peter is speaking of here:
"Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Pet.5:14).
You are severely limited in your understanding of what it means to be in Christ.
And why aren't you posting on the thread on the Pre-Trib rapture?
What is said there destroys you mistaken idea that the Twelve are not in the Body of Christ. Evidently you have no answer to what is said on that thread.
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No, I was quoting your view. Tell us, Preterist, about the antichrist having already appeared, about the Day of the Lord already having occurred, "the second time," the second coming having already occurred, about how we are already experiencing the new heaven and new earth, about how God has, now, "in this dispensation," wiped away all tears from our eyes, that there is no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain, as these are passed away.
Not only have this confused old man been exposed as a humanist, a bible blender, a "Replacement 'Theology'" proponent, but also as a "Full Preterist".To wit, again:
1 John 2 KJV
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
JerryS:If what is said in John's first epistle was for a future dispensation then John would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation." The last time is now, as the antichrist is not for some future dispensation-He is here now!!!!!!!
1 John 2 KJV
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Hebrews 9 KJV
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Jerry S:If what is said in John's first epistle, and in Hebrews, was for a future dispensation then John, the author of Hebrews, would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation." The Lord Jesus Christ's second coming is not for a future dispensation-it already occurred in the dispensation we are now in!!!!!Didn't you read about it, in "Preterist Weekly?"
Hebrews 1 KJV
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
James 5 KJV
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
1 Peter 1 KJV
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1 KJV
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
JerryS:If what is said in the author of Hebrews' epistle, in James' epistle, in Peter's epistle, was for a future dispensation then the author of Hebrews, James, Peter, would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation." The last days, the last time(s), are now, in this dispensation, not the future!!!!!!!!!!!!
Genesis 3:15 KJV
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
JerryS:If what is said in Genesis 3:15 KJV was for a future dispensation, perhaps thousands of years in the future, then the author of Genesis would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation."
Joel 3:14 KJV Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
JerryS:If what is said in Joel was for a future dispensation then the author of Joel would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation." The day of the Lord has already happened!!
Zephaniah 1:14 KJV The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
JerryS:If what is said in Zephaniah was for a future dispensation then the author of Zephaniah would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation."The great day of the Lord has already happened!!!
Revelation 21 KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
JerryS:If what is said in Revelation, by John, was for a future dispensation then John would have told them, "What I am telling you is not for now but instead it is for a future dispensation." There is no more death now!!!There are no more tears now!!!There is no more sorrow now!!!There is no more crying now!!! There is no pain now!!! We are in the new heaven and new earth now!!!!
Puh rayzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawd!!!
You cannot be this stupid of a bible blender....I take that back.
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