If Noah's flood was a legend why should anyone trust Jesus?

[6days]

God did it is an acceptable answer in origins or historical science.( re beliefs about the past)

First you say creationism is a belief about the past and not science

You seem to have trouble being completely honest with my statement. My complete statement was that evolutionism and creationism are both beliefs about the past and not science.... However, we can perform science to help validate or invalidate those beliefs.*

but here you say beliefs about the past*are*science.

Origins or historical 'science' is not your normal, emperical, observational science. Origins science is really interpreting data to fit your belief system about the past. Thus, evolutionism often ends up with egg on their face since they attempt to fit data into a false belief system.*

Scientists don't use God did it as an answer in operational/ emperical science.

Why not?

I think you know. Otherwise you need study about the rise of modern science and its connection to the Bible. Many of the fathers of modern science believed science was possible because God would have created in a orderly, logical manner making science possible.

You said we should look for "evidence of design" as a means to test God. So I'm asking what is "evidence of design".

Your not so brilliant 'gotcha' question has been answered numerous times. For example I told you "Its easy to recognize design and purpose. There are patterns of evidence. Logic tells us that things which appear designed...and contain coded information quite likely were created

So how do we tell? (Which is correct, if any, between Qu'ran and Bible)

Once you accept there is evidence for the creator, then research....study. If you are interested in comparing the two religions, it might be better as a new thread.

You answered this yourself. You said look for evidence of design.

First, I never said that at all.*I even went out of my way*to say that's*not*what I was saying.

Perhaps you should clarify then because I think that is what you did say. I asked how you would determine if the faces on Mt. Rushmore were the product of natural forces or an intelligent designer. You said "

You walk up to the mountain, see the faces, say "Huh. Those carvings look like the faces of humans. That probably means humans carved them.". You have looked for evidence of design.

 

[6days]

*my 6, you are correct, there are mountains on every continent. But to use this post to claim there are mountains of evidence of every continent of your theology is just a non sequitur.*

Ha... very good. However the mountains themselves and the layers are consistent with the Biblical account and the flood model. (Evidence of rapid upheaval, folding of layers before hardened into rock, polystrate trees etc) And then we could consider the marine fossils on every mountain range and the evidence of rapid burial.*So .... there really are mountains of evidence on every continent. *

 

[Jose Fly]

My complete statement was that evolutionism and creationism are both beliefs about the past and not science.... However, we can perform science to help validate or invalidate those beliefs.

Isn't that just hypothesis testing? IOW, you form a hypothesis about the past, and then employ the scientific method to either validate or invalidate that hypothesis.

Origins or historical 'science' is not your normal, emperical, observational science. Origins science is really interpreting data to fit your belief system about the past.

According to who?

I think you know.

You're dodging again. You said operational science doesn't accept "God did it" as an answer. Why don't they?

Your not so brilliant 'gotcha' question has been answered numerous times. For example I told you "Its easy to recognize design and purpose. There are patterns of evidence. Logic tells us that things which appear designed...and contain coded information quite likely were created

IOW, your "evidence for design" is "If it looks designed, it is"? What's the difference between things that look designed and things that don't?

Once you accept there is evidence for the creator, then research....study. If you are interested in comparing the two religions, it might be better as a new thread.

Non-answer noted.

Perhaps you should clarify then because I think that is what you did say.

Then you weren't paying attention.

I asked how you would determine if the faces on Mt. Rushmore were the product of natural forces or an intelligent designer. You said "You walk up to the mountain, see the faces, say "Huh. Those carvings look like the faces of humans. That probably means humans carved them.". You have looked for evidence of design.

Just a tip....probably not a good idea to quote mine someone while you're still having a discussion with them, especially in a forum where everything is a matter of written record. Here is my response, including the parts you conveniently omitted....

You walk up to the mountain, see the faces, say "Huh. Those carvings look like the faces of humans. That probably means humans carved them." Then you go look around and see if you can find humans actually carving human faces out of rock, in real time. You do...in fact you see it all over in all sorts of settings and cultures. So logically you conclude "If I see people carving faces out of rock all the time, then when I look at Mt. Rushmore the logical conclusion is that it too was carved by people." And then of course if you really wanted, you could go look up the Congressional and other federal records and contracts to see that it was Gutzon and Lincoln Borglum who carved it. And then there's lots of things like this...

 

[Jose Fly]

And then we could consider the marine fossils on every mountain range

How'd they get up there?

 

[6days]

¿And then we could consider the marine fossils on every mountain range

How'd they get up there?

They swam up the mountain and died from oxygen depravation?

God's Word tell us how they got there. Science tells us how they got there. They were rapidly buried in sediment in a catrophic event. Then the mountains rose.
Psalm 104:8 Mountains rose and valleys sank to the levels you decreed.

 

[Jonahdog]

They swam up the mountain and died from oxygen depravation?

God's Word tell us how they got there. Science tells us how they got there. They were rapidly buried in sediment in a catrophic event. Then the mountains rose.
Psalm 104:8 Mountains rose and valleys sank to the levels you decreed.

Were the marine fossils on, say Mt. Everest, deposited during the Flood? How would we determine when they were deposited?

 

[Caino]

Were the marine fossils on, say Mt. Everest, deposited during the Flood? How would we determine when they were deposited?

In the real world, apart from the young earth creation narrative of Hebrew preachers, the marine fossils were deposited millions of years ago before the land was elevated by the continental crash that caused the Himalayan formation.

 

[Jose Fly]

They swam up the mountain and died from oxygen depravation?

Are you serious?

God's Word tell us how they got there. Science tells us how they got there. They were rapidly buried in sediment in a catrophic event. Then the mountains rose.

By about how much and in about how much time (no need to be exact, just something like whether we're talking a couple of feet over 1,000 years, or tens of thousands of feet over 100 years)?

 

[6days]

God's Word tell us how they got there. Science tells us how they got there. They were rapidly buried in sediment in a catrophic event. Then the mountains rose.*
Psalm 104:8*Mountains rose and valleys sank to the levels you decreed.

By about how much and in about how much time (no need to be exact, just something like whether we're talking a couple of feet over 1,000 years, or tens of thousands of feet over 100 years)?

Wait....your question was' how did the fossils get up on Everest'... not the time frame. Can you agree that the evidence is consistent with the Biblical account on "how they got up there"? Can you agree that all surfaces of the earth have been under water at some point in the past?

 

[Jose Fly]

Wait....your question was' how did the fossils get up on Everest'... not the time frame.

Wait, are you trying to say that you can just assert "They were rapidly buried in sediment in a catrophic event. Then the mountains rose", and no one is allowed to ask any further questions?

Can you agree that the evidence is consistent with the Biblical account on "how they got up there"?

Not in the slightest.

Can you agree that all surfaces of the earth have been under water at some point in the past?

Most certainly not all at the same time, and most certainly not ~4,500 years ago.

 

[6days]

Wait, your question was' how did the fossils get up on Everest'

Wait, are you trying to say that you can just assert "They were rapidly buried in sediment in a catrophic event. Then the mountains rose", and no one is allowed to ask any further questions?

Sure... ask questions but don't move the goal posts.

You asked how fossils got on Everest. The evidence shows they were rapidly buried in sediment. The evidence shows the mountains rose.

Surely you agree?

Can you agree that the evidence is consistent with the Biblical account on "how they got up there"?

Not in the slightest.

So you don't think the fossils are found in sedimentmentary layers? You don't think the mountains rose?

Can you agree that all surfaces of the earth have been under water at some point in the past?

Most certainly not all at the same time...

So you do agree that all the earth has been under water in the past... just not all at once?

 

[Jose Fly]

Sure... ask questions but don't move the goal posts.

No problem. And in the same spirit, don't hide behind "you moved the goalposts" as an excuse to avoid reasonable follow-up questions.

You asked how fossils got on Everest. The evidence shows they were rapidly buried in sediment. The evidence shows the mountains rose.

Surely you agree?

Nope, the strata on Everest were not rapidly buried, and I have a strong feeling we disagree on important details about the mountains rising, i.e., how much and over what time period.

So can you please estimate just how much you believe Mt. Everest rose and over what time period?

So you don't think the fossils are found in sedimentmentary layers? You don't think the mountains rose?

You asked "Can you agree that the evidence is consistent with the Biblical account on "how they got up there"?" If you believe the Biblical account means they "got up there" as a result of a global flood, then again, no.

So you do agree that all the earth has been under water in the past... just not all at once?

Nope.