If God created...

Jonahdog

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What are you trying to prove exactly? Proving the necessity of a Creator for a Creation is a first step. Proving who that Creator is a different step, and it's pretty pointless to go there when someone's arguing that irreducibly complex systems sprung into existence from the VOID on their own.

Just for clarification, are you accepting that there is a Creator, and asking for proof as to who that Creator is? Or are you still arguing the first point?

What are you trying to say exactly?
Actually, the only people who seem to rely on the irreducibly oomplex argument are ID people. No one has shown such a system.

More importantly, no one with any knowledge of the real world argues that such systems, if there be any, sprang "into existence from the VOID on their own". That is pretty much a Kent Hovind argument. It is a required argument of Genesis literalists who must find a way for the universe to reach its current state within a few thousand years or face hell fire from their particular deity. But the evidence (sorry 6) indicates otherwise.
 

Stuu

New member
What are you trying to prove exactly?
Have you read the thread, or at least back to #244?

Proving the necessity of a Creator for a Creation is a first step. Proving who that Creator is a different step, and it's pretty pointless to go there when someone's arguing that irreducibly complex systems sprung into existence from the VOID on their own.
So your order of necessity is that a creator is required by a creation, and a creation is required by irreducible complexity.

So don't stop now! As Jonahdog is suggesting, you need to establish what requires irreducible complexity.

The existence of your 'creator' seems to depend on that.

Stuart
 

Jonahdog

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Today's SSS program was 20 minutes on the 6000sk subterranean rapid deposit in China that is being unearthed that is crammed with hundreds of kinds of dinosaurs and therapods (those which are similar to birds) along with virtually modern creatures. While I only heard the concluding minutes, there were two main thrusts: 1, that the deposit is sedimentary slurry trapping many creatures thought to be millions old, preserved well enough to study internal organs and stomach contents. The find supports massive catastrophic slurry. 2, that the time system of conventional evolution will be found to be extremely flawed. By 'kinds' of creatures, he didn't mean individual examples, which are probably in the millions, but species.

What is the SSS program?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Notes on MicroSoft's slideshow lately.

Lots of great photography for W10 users. Lately there were a couple geologic ones, and here are my comments.

1, Grand Canyon. The caption says the Colorado is mighty. So I guess they've never been to Taku or the Fraser in peak. Maybe they never heard of Lake Missoula bursting. The Colorado is not mighty. There are no geologists who think the canyon formed the way the river is today.

All over north America and beyond, you can see some interesting riverbed-to-canyon ratios, usually with one sub-canyon. For ex., Ennis Creek, Port Angeles WA. At the end of summer, the stream is 1h x 8. It's peak flow, in the same bed is about 3h x 12. That is the 'sub-canyon' within the larger. Everyone sees this rise and fall every year. The next size up, on top of the existing, is the "low" when Ennis was rapidly draining off something cataclysmic from the Olympics. The low was prob 10h x 50, at the same location that is now 1h x 8. There is just enough room for people to build homes along the edge of the stream and into the bank. The lines of such a flow are found in detail where the plant growth is cut away. The broad shape of it is visible by just driving by. The peak flow seems to have been twice the height and maybe 10 foot wider. Above that you are back to the dominant ground level in the Port Angeles area, about 150 feet higher.

There are about 8 of these drainage streams/creeks in Port Angeles, and they were a real headache when the state highway came through: there was no way to afford to bypass the city with bridges over them and to build a decent 4 lane main road through the town, so none of these streams were bridged. At the highway crossing of Morse creek, which is also an ice-break river like Lake Missoula, the canyon is a half mile shoulder to shoulder. The cataclysmic drainage peak was nearly that wide at the same location. Currently, the Morse low is 1d x 20 and its peak is 3d x 30.

The city has two difficult 200 ft deep canyons further west, both about 1/4 mile wide and side-by-side, Tumwater and Valley. They have the same ratio patterns to their streams. The big cut took place catastrophically and finally settled into the size we have today.

The Grand Canyon had catastrophic flows that scoured it out to the size we see today, with the additional feature of there being maybe 3-4 subcanyons. anyone with a mind will realize that the larger flows happened first (broadest horizontal impact), then lesser and narrower. Not the reverse. The Colorado as is (current size) did not make Grand as is. Monterey Canyon (submarine) is 3x the size of Grand and has the same features. So does Juan De Fuca, but it has not been mapped as well, in fact, mapping is just starting.

These features happened during catastrophic flooding and slurry flows that moved around features of whole continents, the same as the Centralia, Australia, area and now the finding of the massive subterranean slurry deposit in China with the features listed above.

2, another beautiful shot was the hexagonal columns, though I did not catch the location. We have some in our area on a shoulder of Mt Rainier. Granitic or magmatic bursts came up and met ice and a 6 sided form results, reminding us of snowflake design. Dr. Ager, who does not believe Noah's deluge has anything to do with anything, says that granite like that or Yosemite can happen in 6 hours. There is no intrinsic reason why the caption for the Microsoft picture needs to say this happened over millions of years. It happened because of serious and rapid catastrophic tectonics, disruption, forcing together elements like we find in the national parks of Iceland.
 

Jonahdog

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Banned
Notes on MicroSoft's slideshow lately.

Lots of great photography for W10 users. Lately there were a couple geologic ones, and here are my comments.

1, Grand Canyon. The caption says the Colorado is mighty. So I guess they've never been to Taku or the Fraser in peak. Maybe they never heard of Lake Missoula bursting. The Colorado is not mighty. There are no geologists who think the canyon formed the way the river is today.

All over north America and beyond, you can see some interesting riverbed-to-canyon ratios, usually with one sub-canyon. For ex., Ennis Creek, Port Angeles WA. At the end of summer, the stream is 1h x 8. It's peak flow, in the same bed is about 3h x 12. That is the 'sub-canyon' within the larger. Everyone sees this rise and fall every year. The next size up, on top of the existing, is the "low" when Ennis was rapidly draining off something cataclysmic from the Olympics. The low was prob 10h x 50, at the same location that is now 1h x 8. There is just enough room for people to build homes along the edge of the stream and into the bank. The lines of such a flow are found in detail where the plant growth is cut away. The broad shape of it is visible by just driving by. The peak flow seems to have been twice the height and maybe 10 foot wider. Above that you are back to the dominant ground level in the Port Angeles area, about 150 feet higher.

There are about 8 of these drainage streams/creeks in Port Angeles, and they were a real headache when the state highway came through: there was no way to afford to bypass the city with bridges over them and to build a decent 4 lane main road through the town, so none of these streams were bridged. At the highway crossing of Morse creek, which is also an ice-break river like Lake Missoula, the canyon is a half mile shoulder to shoulder. The cataclysmic drainage peak was nearly that wide at the same location. Currently, the Morse low is 1d x 20 and its peak is 3d x 30.

The city has two difficult 200 ft deep canyons further west, both about 1/4 mile wide and side-by-side, Tumwater and Valley. They have the same ratio patterns to their streams. The big cut took place catastrophically and finally settled into the size we have today.

The Grand Canyon had catastrophic flows that scoured it out to the size we see today, with the additional feature of there being maybe 3-4 subcanyons. anyone with a mind will realize that the larger flows happened first (broadest horizontal impact), then lesser and narrower. Not the reverse. The Colorado as is (current size) did not make Grand as is. Monterey Canyon (submarine) is 3x the size of Grand and has the same features. So does Juan De Fuca, but it has not been mapped as well, in fact, mapping is just starting.

These features happened during catastrophic flooding and slurry flows that moved around features of whole continents, the same as the Centralia, Australia, area and now the finding of the massive subterranean slurry deposit in China with the features listed above.

2, another beautiful shot was the hexagonal columns, though I did not catch the location. We have some in our area on a shoulder of Mt Rainier. Granitic or magmatic bursts came up and met ice and a 6 sided form results, reminding us of snowflake design. Dr. Ager, who does not believe Noah's deluge has anything to do with anything, says that granite like that or Yosemite can happen in 6 hours. There is no intrinsic reason why the caption for the Microsoft picture needs to say this happened over millions of years. It happened because of serious and rapid catastrophic tectonics, disruption, forcing together elements like we find in the national parks of Iceland.


When and how did the Grand Canyon form? How do we know?

When did Lake Missoula burst? How do we know? Did it only happen once or more than once?
 

Rosenritter

New member
What are you trying to say exactly?
Actually, the only people who seem to rely on the irreducibly oomplex argument are ID people. No one has shown such a system.

More importantly, no one with any knowledge of the real world argues that such systems, if there be any, sprang "into existence from the VOID on their own". That is pretty much a Kent Hovind argument. It is a required argument of Genesis literalists who must find a way for the universe to reach its current state within a few thousand years or face hell fire from their particular deity. But the evidence (sorry 6) indicates otherwise.

Now you are talking in circles. Did the complex systems come from the void, or were they always in existence in some form or another?
 

Rosenritter

New member
Have you read the thread, or at least back to #244?


So your order of necessity is that a creator is required by a creation, and a creation is required by irreducible complexity.

So don't stop now! As Jonahdog is suggesting, you need to establish what requires irreducible complexity.

The existence of your 'creator' seems to depend on that.

Stuart

Most everything living around us is irreducibly complex. Let's use the blood, blood vessels, and heart for example. Already mentioned on this forum and remaining unanswered. A Swiss watch is complex and cannot form by random interactions of forces, and one living cell makes that watch look as simple as a salt crystal.
 

Jonahdog

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Now you are talking in circles. Did the complex systems come from the void, or were they always in existence in some form or another?

What is it you are suggesting? When was this void? How long ago?
Because as I understand the science, complex systems did not come fully formed from any void, nor were they always in existence.
 

Jonahdog

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Most everything living around us is irreducibly complex. Let's use the blood, blood vessels, and heart for example. Already mentioned on this forum and remaining unanswered. A Swiss watch is complex and cannot form by random interactions of forces, and one living cell makes that watch look as simple as a salt crystal.

What does irreducibly complex mean? Use the heart as an example.
 

Stuu

New member
Most everything living around us is irreducibly complex. Let's use the blood, blood vessels, and heart for example. Already mentioned on this forum and remaining unanswered. A Swiss watch is complex and cannot form by random interactions of forces, and one living cell makes that watch look as simple as a salt crystal.
Irreducibly complex doesn't just mean complex though, does it.

We all know that a Swiss watch is designed and manufactured by a watchmaker, and that there is a core of parts that work together to make the watch keep time, the removal of any one of which would stop the watch from working.

But what does that have to do with living organisms that reproduce with variation?

Stuart
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Irreducibly complex doesn't just mean complex though, does it.

We all know that a Swiss watch is designed and manufactured by a watchmaker, and that there is a core of parts that work together to make the watch keep time, the removal of any one of which would stop the watch from working.

But what does that have to do with living organisms that reproduce with variation?

Stuart





Everything I hear about the newest findings of cellular life is that each of them are 'cities' of activity which all have to work right the first time--created. That's what it has to do with living organisms.

What does reproduce with variation mean anyway? Not that much variation. Most mutations are fails, if that's what you mean.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
What is it you are suggesting? When was this void? How long ago?
Because as I understand the science, complex systems did not come fully formed from any void, nor were they always in existence.





That would be the science that must have lab proof, even if the topic is something 10K years ago. Yet they are perfectly at ease making 1MYA or 10MYA declarations! But if a detective finds a creature's stomach with contents in a slurry that must have happened about 10K ago because of all the corroborating information, including Genesis, "science" says whoa, because our "lab" has not yet shown how those million year old terrapod creatures could have been in that slurry. But we are getting there with our models!
 

Rosenritter

New member
What is it you are suggesting? When was this void? How long ago?
Because as I understand the science, complex systems did not come fully formed from any void, nor were they always in existence.

If they were not always in existence, then at one time they were not in existence. Do you follow this chain of logic so far? How long ago is irrelevant. The word void means nothingness. If at one point you have nothing, and another point you have something, then that is "from the void."

I assume that you believe that the earth was not always here. If this assumption is on target, then you believe that life formed "from the void."
 

Rosenritter

New member
That would be the science that must have lab proof, even if the topic is something 10K years ago. Yet they are perfectly at ease making 1MYA or 10MYA declarations! But if a detective finds a creature's stomach with contents in a slurry that must have happened about 10K ago because of all the corroborating information, including Genesis, "science" says whoa, because our "lab" has not yet shown how those million year old terrapod creatures could have been in that slurry. But we are getting there with our models!

So which formed first, the mitochondria, or the cell that needs the mitochondria? These little items are far more complex than a Swiss watch.
 

Jonahdog

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If they were not always in existence, then at one time they were not in existence. Do you follow this chain of logic so far? How long ago is irrelevant. The word void means nothingness. If at one point you have nothing, and another point you have something, then that is "from the void."

I assume that you believe that the earth was not always here. If this assumption is on target, then you believe that life formed "from the void."

Are you suggesting that life just popped into existence from some "nothingness"?
 

Jonahdog

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Banned
So which formed first, the mitochondria, or the cell that needs the mitochondria? These little items are far more complex than a Swiss watch.

that is really an interesting question. there seems to be evidence that mitochondria were free living bacteria that either parasitized cells or were symbiotic with other cells. I'm not real clear on the details. I think a lot of the early work was done by Lynn Margulis. I am sure Google can help you if you are interested.
 

Jonahdog

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That would be the science that must have lab proof, even if the topic is something 10K years ago. Yet they are perfectly at ease making 1MYA or 10MYA declarations! But if a detective finds a creature's stomach with contents in a slurry that must have happened about 10K ago because of all the corroborating information, including Genesis, "science" says whoa, because our "lab" has not yet shown how those million year old terrapod creatures could have been in that slurry. But we are getting there with our models!

Is English your first language? Because this is not very coherent. Are you suggesting that ALL science must be based on lab experiments?
 

Rosenritter

New member
that is really an interesting question. there seems to be evidence that mitochondria were free living bacteria that either parasitized cells or were symbiotic with other cells. I'm not real clear on the details. I think a lot of the early work was done by Lynn Margulis. I am sure Google can help you if you are interested.

There's a giggleplex of other biological machines at work, all of them required for a basic cell to function. I wonder how you would think that the cells could function in the first place, and survive in the first place, to be able to kidnap some other cell and then figure out how to put them to work for them, and obey orders...
 
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