ECT How is Paul's message different?

turbosixx

New member
Actually, it does matter. If you just want to talk in vague generalities, you can just spout your opinion as fact all that you want. It doesn't mean a thing.

I was trying to make it easy on you giving you the entire OT. I keep hearing that the 12 taught the people to keep the law of Moses but I have seen no evidence. Do you know of any evidence that the apostles taught the observance of anything from the OT after the cross? All I see them teach is Jesus.

There is one thing but Paul was in agreement with it and spread the word about it himself.
 

Right Divider

Body part
That's not what the passage about the ONE NEW MAN tells us when keeping it in context.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,
That is all true, but this does not change the LARGER context about Israel and the body of Christ.

The one NEW man is NOT about Gentiles joining with Israel. As I showed you, Gentiles could always join with Israel even BEFORE the cross and be "as one born in the land".

Notice that the heathen Gentiles are NOT brought near by a covenant, but BY THE BLOOD. And yes, it's the SAME blood that will give Israel their NEW covenant.

Continue on to chapter 3 of Ephesians and then we can discuss some more.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I was trying to make it easy on you giving you the entire OT. I keep hearing that the 12 taught the people to keep the law of Moses but I have seen no evidence. Do you know of any evidence that the apostles taught the observance of anything from the OT after the cross? All I see them teach is Jesus.
Are you disagreeing that Jesus taught them to keep the law in Matt 23:1-3? And are you then disagreeing that Jesus told them to teach "all that I have commanded you", in Matt 28:20?

There is one thing but Paul was in agreement with it and spread the word about it himself.
There you go vague again. Spit it out. What are you talking about? Be clear.... it's not that hard.
 
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Interplanner

Well-known member
How is it not different?

I invite you to answer the questions I just posed to LA.

They illustrate just two of the differences between Paul and the twelve but to give you a direct answer, the difference is the Gospel of Grace.

No one other than Paul preached the gospel of grace - no one. Not Jesus, not Peter nor James nor John nor anyone else.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,​

That idea is exclusive to Paul!

Further, there are lots and lots of doctrinal debates in the church that have persisted for centuries and a great many of them, if not all of them, fall along the lines of Paul vs Peter, James & John.

Is water baptism required for salvation?

If you say, "Yes", you'll cite the New Testament books NOT written by Paul, including the Gospels.

If you say, "No", you'll cite nothing at all but the books written by Paul.

The same is true about whether works are required for salvation, or whether you can lost your salvation, or speaking in tongues, or whether the rapture will occur before or after the Tribulation, or whether you should only eat certain kinds of foods, or whether you should observe the Sabbath or tithe or obey the Ten Commandments, etc, etc.

All of these seemingly unrelated issues, and many more, all fall along the lines of Paul vs the rest of the Biblical authors and so I'm not being flippant at all when I say that the list of what isn't different is much shorter than the list of things which are different. Very nearly the whole thing is different because the difference is literally the difference between observance of the law being required vs. observance of the law being prohibited.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Here's an excellent example of just the sort of doctrinal debate I'm talking about. Skim through the first several posts and take note of the proof texts on each side...

Swine Sausage - Sin?



Nonsense about there not being the same grace in Jesus as in the others. Total nonsense that does not see the subtext of the other materials, most likely through 'literalism.'
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Are disagreeing that Jesus taught them to keep the law in Matt 23:1-3? And are you then disagreeing that Jesus told them to teach "all that I have commanded you", in Matt 28:20?


There you go vague again. Spit it out. What are you talking about? Be clear.... it's not that hard.


You don't realize what Mt23 is there for!
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You see folks, LA enjoys making death predictions about posters she
hates.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

What's your point? Oh, that's right, you never have a point to make.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
What's your point? Oh, that's right, you never have a point to make.

Pro 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.
Pro 10:9 He that walketh uprightly walketh surely: but he that perverteth his ways shall be known.
Pro 10:10 He that winketh with the eye causeth sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall.
Pro 10:11 The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life: but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked.
Pro 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.
Pro 10:13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
Pro 10:14 Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.
Pro 10:15 The rich man's wealth is his strong city: the destruction of the poor is their poverty.
Pro 10:16 The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.
Pro 10:17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.
Pro 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
Pro 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
Pro 10:20 The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.
Pro 10:21 The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
That's not what the passage about the ONE NEW MAN tells us when keeping it in context.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,
The both made one (Ephesians 2:14 KJV)/the twain made one new man (Ephesians 2:15 KJV) are the "we" who first trusted in Christ (Ephesians 1:12 KJV) beginning with Paul (1 Timothy 1:16 KJV) and the "ye" who "also trusted (Ephesians 1:13 KJV).
 

turbosixx

New member
Are disagreeing that Jesus taught them to keep the law in Matt 23:1-3?

No, Jesus told them to keep the law. Until Jesus' DBR, that's what law they were under.

And are you then disagreeing that Jesus told them to teach "all that I have commanded you", in Matt 28:20?

Yes, Jesus told them to teach what he commanded, but where his commandments the law?
Old Law
Matt. 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery';
Jesus' law
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Under the old law you could lust after a women and not act on it and not be guilty of the law, but Jesus changed that. Jesus has taken the old law that delt with our actions and made it of the heart. Sound familiar? Heb.8:10


There you go vague again. Spit it out. What are you talking about? Be clear.... it's not that hard.

This is the only thing from the old law I see taught after the cross and Paul is of one mind with it.
Acts 15:23 and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. 24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
 
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turbosixx

New member
Notice that the heathen Gentiles are NOT brought near by a covenant, but BY THE BLOOD. And yes, it's the SAME blood that will give Israel their NEW covenant.

The blood is there, why not the covenant? What establishes a covenant? Acceptance by ALL the people?

By what blood were these Jews sins forgiven?
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If by Christ's blood, was it Jesus' blood and the old covenant?
Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

I don't see how it could work any other way than Jesus' DBR established the new covenant.
 
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turbosixx

New member
The one NEW man is NOT about Gentiles joining with Israel. As I showed you, Gentiles could always join with Israel even BEFORE the cross and be "as one born in the land".

Yes, Gentiles joining with Israel, it's never the other way around.

Rom. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,...21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.



I would suggest to you that those in Jesus are true Israel without regard to national affiliation.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

It’s the children of promise through Christ that are true Israel, therefore that is how all Israel will be saved, through Jesus.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Yes, Gentiles joining with Israel, it's never the other way around.

Rom. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,...21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

I would suggest to you that those in Jesus are true Israel without regard to national affiliation.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

It’s the children of promise through Christ that are true Israel, therefore that is how all Israel will be saved, through Jesus.


Indeed, God divorced natural Israel and it will remain so until the "end of the time of the gentiles" upon which time God will re-graft in the Jews into the Vine.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Yes, Gentiles joining with Israel, it's never the other way around.

Rom. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,...21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.



I would suggest to you that those in Jesus are true Israel without regard to national affiliation.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

It’s the children of promise through Christ that are true Israel, therefore that is how all Israel will be saved, through Jesus.


That's the right conclusion. That's what all Israel means there in the overall direction of the chapter.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Indeed, God divorced natural Israel and it will remain so until the "end of the time of the gentiles" upon which time God will re-graft in the Jews into the Vine.



A bit of mixing metaphors (vines in Jn 15 and olive trees in Rom 11) but more to the point: a person is part of the right tree by faith alone. You've missed that there is no more working with 'ethnes.' There is no re-grafting because that grafting-in is going on right now down through history. Rom 11:30 is very conclusive about this 'ethnes' stuff; that everything now transacts through Christ and the mercy of God in Him.

When you see that and work back through Rom 11, you will see that the quotes of Isaiah are historically fulfilled already, and that 'saved' is justification in Christ, not another phase of a theocracy for or of Israel.
 

turbosixx

New member
A bit of mixing metaphors (vines in Jn 15 and olive trees in Rom 11) but more to the point: a person is part of the right tree by faith alone. You've missed that there is no more working with 'ethnes.' There is no re-grafting because that grafting-in is going on right now down through history. Rom 11:30 is very conclusive about this 'ethnes' stuff; that everything now transacts through Christ and the mercy of God in Him.

When you see that and work back through Rom 11, you will see that the quotes of Isaiah are historically fulfilled already, and that 'saved' is justification in Christ, not another phase of a theocracy for or of Israel.

That's the way I see it. I believe "the time of the Gentiles" is misunderstood.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Pro 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.
Pro 10:9 He that walketh uprightly walketh surely: but he that perverteth his ways shall be known.
Pro 10:10 He that winketh with the eye causeth sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall.
Pro 10:11 The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life: but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked.
Pro 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.
Pro 10:13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
Pro 10:14 Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.
Pro 10:15 The rich man's wealth is his strong city: the destruction of the poor is their poverty.
Pro 10:16 The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.
Pro 10:17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.
Pro 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
Pro 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
Pro 10:20 The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.
Pro 10:21 The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.

Practicing your copy/paste techniques again?
 
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