turbosixx
New member
Yep, I worded it incorrectly.
ECT How is Paul's message different?
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
Yep, I worded it incorrectly.
I had just answered this question literally 20 minutes before you posted it.
If your questions where simply honest questions and not snarky and sarcastic as though the mere asking of the question means you've proven your case and that I'm stupid, you might have been engaged in a substantive discussion about what I believe and why I believe it.
As it is, you're stuck with 1 inch deep one liners that only you and those who already agree with get anything out of.
Resting in Him,
Clete
lifeisgood
New member
There is only one Gospel throughout in the Bible.
It matters not the names we give to it or the person it is preached to or the person who preaches it --- it is the same One Gospel --- OT and NT.
There are however, different ways of presenting the same Gospel, different emphasis from different preachers, for example, I, Paul, decided to deal with only one subject --- Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary (1 Cor. 2:2). There were many other subjects Paul could have gone with but, I am sure by revelation, the Lord told him to only emphasize Him and what He did.
For Peter it took the Lord a long time to make Peter understand that that one Gospel was to be preached to different peoples --- Acts 10.
From OT times to NT times there has only been ONE Gospel.
OT times it was preached through the Tabernacle and all its utensils.
NT times it is preached through Jesus Christ and His Cross (1 Corinthians 1:18.) which is the fulfillment of the Tabernacle type/shadow.
And, please, for those who would ask for one specific verse, all I can provide is that you have to study the whole of the types and shadows of the OT and you will find that particular verse you will be asking for.
Unless one understand the OT, the NT makes no sense at all and all we do is create confusion in the BOC --- I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of (place a name here).
It matters not the names we give to it or the person it is preached to or the person who preaches it --- it is the same One Gospel --- OT and NT.
There are however, different ways of presenting the same Gospel, different emphasis from different preachers, for example, I, Paul, decided to deal with only one subject --- Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary (1 Cor. 2:2). There were many other subjects Paul could have gone with but, I am sure by revelation, the Lord told him to only emphasize Him and what He did.
For Peter it took the Lord a long time to make Peter understand that that one Gospel was to be preached to different peoples --- Acts 10.
From OT times to NT times there has only been ONE Gospel.
OT times it was preached through the Tabernacle and all its utensils.
NT times it is preached through Jesus Christ and His Cross (1 Corinthians 1:18.) which is the fulfillment of the Tabernacle type/shadow.
And, please, for those who would ask for one specific verse, all I can provide is that you have to study the whole of the types and shadows of the OT and you will find that particular verse you will be asking for.
Unless one understand the OT, the NT makes no sense at all and all we do is create confusion in the BOC --- I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of (place a name here).
It's so fascinating that you have gone from one chapter of Acts to another and each happen to be various points at which some Mid-Acts Dispensationalists believe is when the dispensation officially changed. I've stated before that I think the best argument, by far, is for Acts 9 but I think that whole debate misses the point of the book of Acts, which was primarily to give an overview of Israel's rejection of their Messiah and God, in response, turning to the Gentiles. That is the theme of the book of Acts and Acts 28 is a fitting last chapter.
In Acts 28 Paul is speaking to a group of Jews. This single point explains everything he said to them. It is extremely doubtful that he was giving any of these people the details of the grace message. That would have come later.
It's just exactly like it would be today. If I, a person fully convinced of the truth of Acts 9 Dispensationalism (hereafter A9D), were to go to the home of a Jewish family or asked them to come to mine to discuss the Christian faith in an attempt to get them to believe it, the only possible place I could start with them is to show them via the Law of Moses as well as the rest of the Old Testament that Jesus is their Messiah. That's where the Gospel of Grace, Paul's Gospel, begins, especially for the Jew. Once a Jew believes that much, then and only then would a discussion about Israel's rejection of the Messiah and the rest of the details about the grace gospel make any sense.
On a separate point and in an effort to refocus the discussion a bit, remember that Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is not the same sort of doctrine that you are used to dealing with. Most of your last several posts have focused on what you consider to be problem texts. This is understandable and so I've made my best effort to deal with them at face value but I don't want to go to far down this road for fear of giving the wrong impression. Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is not merely a particular doctrinal position on the same level as something like taking a position of whether you can lose your salvation or whether water baptism is required or the timing of the rapture. Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is truly a different doctrinal paradigm!
What I mean by that is this; I do not have problem texts. And I mean that literally. I have responded to what you see as problem texts because I think it is valuable for you to see how I understand these passages but its important for you to catch the real point which is that none of what you see as problem texts read in my eyes as anything but proof texts. My hope is that by understanding how I see the details, it will help you to see the whole but that can only go so far because you, from your paradigm will have 66 books full of what you think are problem texts for me to deal with.
This is the reason you'll only very rarely see me post a proof text on this web forum about anything. It feels like I've posted more of what might be called proof texts on this single thread than I've posted in the last year on all my other threads combined. That might be over stating it but even so, the point is that proof texts do not convince people. They just don't. And the reason they don't is because of this whole paradigm issue.
So why is my doctrinal paradigm superior? That's really the question at hand here and it a very difficult question to answer because even the answer to the question is tinted by the paradigm you already hold. But that cannot be helped so here goes nothin'...
Your doctrinal paradigm is the way you see the big picture or the overall plot line of the bible as a whole and in this case, of the New Testament in particular. The bible, like many books, has a plot. Each point along the plot line follows logically from those that precede it. Some plot points are not at all surprising (or shouldn't be). The death of Christ, for example, was clearly prophesied throughout the Old Testament and so when it finally occurs, it makes sense. (Note that it was the paradigm held by the Jews that kept them from being able to accept a crucified Messiah - and still is to this day.) Other plot points however are not so expected. You might call these plot twists. It is absolutely critical that you catch the plots twists. With points of the plot that aren't twists but are just expected steps down the story line, you can pick up the story without confusion even if you skipped the section of the book where the event took place but you can't do that with plot twists. If you skip over a plot twist, you're going to be confused and perhaps without even knowing that you're confused because your brain is very good at forcing things to make sense and will create connections where none actually exist. Such is the power of a paradigm!
So what then is the plot of the New Testament according to A9D? Here it is in a nut shell...
- Christ was born under the Law and He was circumcised and lived His life according to the Law.
- Christ was "cut off" (i.e. killed).
- Christ rose to save the Circumcision (Israel).
- The Circumcision rejected their risen Messiah.
- God "cut off" the Circumcision.
- God is now working with the Uncircumcised.
- God will work again with the Circumcision.
Now, you might find the terminology a little awkward in that list but I state it that way intentionally. This plot line parallels an episode that occurred in the Old Testament (see question 3 below) and I wanted to bring it up because the main point I want to make with this post is that A9D answers a great many, seemingly unrelated, doctrinal questions. And not only does it do so but it does so without creating as many questions as it answers. Or put another way, it answers the questions without having to alter the plain meaning of the texts. The result is a bible that is full of nothing at all but proof texts and NO PROBLEM TEXTS.
A9D provides the fame work (the plot line) needed to answer all of the following questions (and several more, I'm sure)...
- Why Paul? Where the need for a 13th Apostle?
- Why did Peter (and the Holy Spirit) insist that believers sell all their possessions and turn all of the proceeds over to the Twelve?
- Why did Moses not have children circumcised for forty years while in the desert? Circumcision is a symbol for the whole law (i.e. both are a cutting off of the flesh). So you have a whole generation born without the Law and those of the previous generation never entered the promised land. (Joshua 5:6)
- Are we the Bride of Christ?
- Did the Body of Christ replace Israel?
- Why did the Twelve never forsake Israel or their Kingdom rules. (Luke 22:29-30; Acts 21:17-20; Romans 9:11; Revelation 21:12-14.
- Why did Paul have to get in Peter's face when the men "from James" showed up?
- Can you lose your salvation?
- Is baptism necessary for salvation?
- Must a believer continually ask God for the forgiveness of his sins or is he already forgiven?
- Should believers speak in tongues?
- Should believers see and perform physical miracles?
- Should we keep the Ten Commandments (i.e. the law)?
- Does saving faith require works?
- Should we keep the Sabbath?
- Is Sunday the "Sabbath" for today?
- Are there any foods that we should consider to be "unclean"?
- Will believers be subjected to the Tribulation?
- Will the Rapture occur and if so, will it be before, during or after the Tribulation?
- And there are so many more!
And the really incredible thing about the fact that all of these questions are answered isn't so much that they get answered but that they get answered almost automatically with one single teaching that can be stated in a single sentence! And, once again, answered in a way that leaves you with no problem texts!
What stronger argument could possibly be made? I cannot conceive of a more powerful argument than that for the veracity of any systematic theology! The only thing left is to see the evidence. That is to say, I've made one whopper of a claim here and I've spent I don't know how many hours trying to give a taste of the biblical evidence but I think for you to really see it, a much more in depth and detailed treatment of the topic is necessary than I have to time or the skill to present, especially on a web forum.
Lastly, I don't want to leave you with the impression that I'm trying to bring our discussion to a close. That isn't my intent with this post at all. I only wanted to sort of corral it back around to the real issue at hand so as to prevent us from loosing the forest for the trees.
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. Once again, I am deeply indebted to Bob Enyart for the content of this post. If you haven't read The Plot, chances are, you don't understand the Bible. Its that good! Read it!
heir
TOL Subscriber
Ignorance is not bliss. Something that is "spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21 KJV) is not the same as "according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,..." (Romans 16:25-26 KJV).
heir
TOL Subscriber
That's funny. The gospel of Christ that is the power of God to save us is not in Acts 10!
heir
TOL Subscriber
You cannot show where Gentiles such as we (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV) could be saved apart from Israel in the OT! It is unsearchable! Our salvation cannot be traced out back there as it was hid in God!
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Not rightly dividing the word of truth (denominationalism/one gospelism) is what causes the confusion!
1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Clete,
Have you entered the Holy Place by the blood of Jesus?
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Well how about it Clete.
LA
I just want to call attention to this point you made in your previous post.
The verse I cited in parenthesis, Mark 1:4 explcitly states that John the Baptist baptized people "for the remission of sins"...
Mark 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
The point being that you very definitely could get your sins forgiven while under the law. The reason this is so is because God knew Christ's death would be the needed propitiation for those sins. Thus the author of Hebrews was teaching that it wasn't the blood of bulls but the blood of Christ which the bulls merely symbolized that allowed for the forgiveness of sins. Prior to the cross, however, those who died as faithful believers could not go directly to heaven to be with God. They went instead to what is called "Abraham's Bosom" (Luke 16:22). This is the same place that Christ went during the three days He was dead and separated from the Father. (Luke 23:43).
Just an interesting rabbit trail!
Resting in Him,
Clete
I am identified in Christ and am hidden in Him.
Where He is I am! For I am in Him and He in me - BY FAITH!
Gal. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Col. 2:11-15 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[a] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Col. 2:11-15 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[a] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Does that answer your question?
It should!
I have no need for a temple - I am the temple!
1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Not so during his Ministry----
Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Yes, in the middle of the week.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
All men, not just Israel.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The circumcised unbelievers rejected God way before Christ came.
However not all of Israel rejected the Father, nor did all reject Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Paul was of the circumcision and many others, but they were not all cut off---
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
God is now working with all men circumcised or uncircumcised.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
God never ceased working with the Circumcision.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
LA
lifeisgood
New member
God has ONLY ONE Gospel since BEFORE the creation of the worlds — Jesus Christ and Him Crucified — HIDDEN in the Old Testament in the Tabernacle, its utensils, Altar, sacrifices, etc. – REVEALED in the New Testament by Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.
There is NOT one Gospel for the Jews and one Gospel for the Gentiles.
There was NOT one sacrifice for the Jews and one sacrifice for the proselytes in Old Testament times. It was the SAME sacrifice for both.
We may want to say that there is more than one because we see 'gospel of the circumcision' and 'gospel of the uncircumcision,' but Paul was talking about the people, those who were already circumcised (Jews) and those who were not (Gentiles).
Peter was to preach Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary to the already circumcised.
Paul was to preach Jesus Christ and what he did at the Cross of Calvary to the uncircumcised.
Peter and Paul were BOTH to preach the SAME Gospel to the circumcised and to the uncircumcised — Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.
We now in the BOC are also to preach the ONE Gospel — to the circumcised and to the uncircumcised — Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.
There is NO other Gospel but Jesus Christ and His work at the Cross of Calvary.
HIDDEN in the Old Testament.
VISIBLE in the New Testament.
No wonder Paul said, “For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.” (1 Cor. 3:4-6)
====
P.S. Not screaming when using caps.
LA,
No matter what you do, you will not succeed in getting me to re-argue this whole thread with you.
I will acknowledge that you at the very least provided some proof texts with your one-liners. That still doesn't count as a counter argument or a rebuttal of the arguments I've already made earlier in the thread but its more than you've been willing to do up til now. As I said in the post you quoted, as well as throughout the thread, this debate isn't about proof texts. Its far more fundamental than that. Besides, you were attempting to refute points I didn't even make.
No matter what you do, you will not succeed in getting me to re-argue this whole thread with you.
I will acknowledge that you at the very least provided some proof texts with your one-liners. That still doesn't count as a counter argument or a rebuttal of the arguments I've already made earlier in the thread but its more than you've been willing to do up til now. As I said in the post you quoted, as well as throughout the thread, this debate isn't about proof texts. Its far more fundamental than that. Besides, you were attempting to refute points I didn't even make.
lifeisgood
New member
As I follow Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:1)
We in the BOC are to follow the ONE Gospel --- Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.
heir
TOL Subscriber
That's a made up term and the verse is clear as to whom we are to follow. Why change it?
1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Clete,
Have you entered the Holy Place by the blood of Jesus?
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
The Temple of stone of the OT taught spiritual things of the NT.
Christ went into Heaven (the Most Holy Place) and before He could, the veil had to be torn down, which it was by the sacrifice of His flesh.
Christ ministered from the Holy Place, having entered it through His baptism by John which was the sea before the Holy Place, in order to begin His ministry from there.
That is where the 120 on the day of Pentecost entered.
It was not the entering of only 12 but of 10x12 where 10 denotes the nations.
The 3000 followed shortly after, but in order for men to avoid this death, they devise doctrine to justify removing the molten sea, as Ahaz did.
Solomon--
2Ch 4:2 Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
2Ch 4:3 And under it was the similitude of oxen, which did compass it round about: ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about. Two rows of oxen were cast, when it was cast.
2Ch 4:4 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.
2Ch 4:5 And the thickness of it was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held three thousand baths.
LA
lifeisgood
New member
As I follow Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:1)
We in the BOC are to follow the Gospel --- Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.
1 Cor. 2:2 --- For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
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Wrong thread. If you want to change the subject, start your own thread, please.
turbosixx
New member
Wow, awesome post. I wish I could explain myself as well as you do. I appreciate the time and effort you’ve put in working with me on this. I totally agree with the “doctrinal paradigm”. I’m sure you realize from my vantage point I see your paradigm as well and the more we converse the more I’m zeroing in on what I believe to be the divergence. I don’t see any problem text from my vantage either. It’s funny and sad at the same time that from the very same written word we have two different paradigms, but then again there are thousands out there.
I really liked your bullet point plot and of course mine is not the same. To understand my view of the NT plot, I need to go back a little further.
• Fall of man – Man separated from God – Messiah prophesied (reconciliation)
• God chooses a people – to give words to concerning the Messiah
• God makes covenant of promise with Abraham
• Jews are God’s people and everyone else is without God
• God adds the law given by Moses
• OT is a shadow of the Messiah and the NT
• Jesus announces to Israel he is the Messiah and brings eternal life
• Jews kill Jesus according to God’s plan
• Jesus’ sacrifice establishes his church/kingdom/new covenant reconciling man to God
• Apostles offer salvation to the Jews - believers are saved
• God chooses Saul to work with the Gentiles
• God shows the Jews the Gentiles are fellow heirs (Cornelius)
• Paul travels – believers are saved
• Christians are God’s people and everyone else is without God
• Then comes Judgment
I agree with the forest for the trees comment. That is exactly what I see. The trees being the Jews and the kingdom and the forest being man’s sin.