ECT How is Paul's message different?

[Clete]

It can never be 2 different messages that were preached but rather 2 different audiences that the same message needed to be adjusted for their respective understanding. That is an absolute! Get understanding, young man.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

We've established otherwise! That is to say that we have made actual arguments to support the idea that it is not two different audiences and it is two different messages.
You making the opposite claim might make you feel better about it but it does nothing to refute the arguments that have been made nor does even add substantively to the discussion.

Make an argument! Refute the arguments that have already been made! Something! Use your head for something other than a filler for the hole in the top of your shirt.

If you do, this whole web-forum discussion thing will much more fun and personally satisfying, even if you never convince anyone of anything.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Cross Reference]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Denying it is satanic/anti-Christ in substance. Paul said: Follow me as I follow Christ. Ergo, learn Jesus Christ!

 

[Cross Reference]

delete dup

 

[turbosixx]

No, your point was one gospel with TWO audiences. Nick's point is the opposite.

Thanks for the clarification. Maybe that's why I couldn't figure it out. The audience is the only thing that is described as being different. The audience is describing what area each will be focusing on. Peter working with the Jews and Paul with the Gentiles.

I would believe two different gospels if I saw evidence of two different gospels. I see both Jews and Gentiles being baptized after hearing that Jesus died and was resurrected and receiving the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Nick M]

The works are not to attain to salvation.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Notice how he quoted Paul to make that point.

 

[turbosixx]

Faith plus works is a contradiction.
How can faith be the evidence of something worked for?

How can a Christian truly be a Christian and not bear good fruit?

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.


James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

 

[turbosixx]

I think this is the root of my hang up, and a key to our misunderstanding so I wanted to address it again. In you last post you didn't understand my question so here it is with your response.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

By what covenant did they receive the forgiveness of sins and receive the Holy Spirit?

The direct answer to your question is, the Covenant of Circumcision, or what I've been referring to as the Dispensation of Law, or the Dispensation of the Kingdom.

I can't agree with this and I believe it's fundamental to understand.

Acts 13:38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Paul makes it clear that it's through Christ we receive the forgiveness of sins which was not possible through the law of Moses.

Anytime God establishes a covenant with man there must be a death or blood based on what I understand from this passage.

Heb. 9:16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

Jesus sacrifice isn't part of the old law or an addendum to the old law but replaces the old law.

Heb. 7:11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Yes, these events happened on Jewish feast days but that was to help them understand things concerning Christ.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Those on Pentecost received forgiveness of sins through Christ and the new covenant not the old. The sacrifice of Christ is the beginning of a dispensation. Pentecost is the first time in the history of man that he heard his sin could be forgiven.

Luke 24:46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

 

[Cross Reference]

I think this is the root of my hang up, and a key to our misunderstanding so I wanted to address it again. In you last post you didn't understand my question so here it is with your response.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

By what covenant did they receive the forgiveness of sins and receive the Holy Spirit?

"Redemption", the basis for a new creation to build upon with a totally covenant as its government. That is what the new birth is all about. Though provided by God for all mankind, only the new born of Him can build upon it.

 

[Dialogos]

Nick,

Again, Nice neg rep. I particularly took note of your purposeless insult that you added:

idiot of the day

Grow up, coward.

This is simply internet courage. You say things to people online that you would never say to them face to face because you are a coward hiding behind a username.

Pathetic...

:nono:

Furthermore, you are too blind to see that the verses you try and use to justify your errant theology actually undermines it.

For example..

:readthis:

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?​

Nick, why is Peter, who, according to your flawed theology, is apparently the guy who is in charge of keeping those under the gospel of the circumcision obedient to the law...

:readthis:

LIVING IN THE MANNER OF GENTILES?

:doh:

 

[turbosixx]

Again you suggest that Israel does not have an Earthly kingdom promised to them. Is this really what you believe?

Yes. If Jews are still God's chosen people, were they justified in killing Christ because he wasn't here to establish their earthly kingdom? If I understand you correctly, this is before God rejected them. If they haven't received what was promised, does a Jew living today have a choice to follow Christ or wait for the promised kingdom?

The promise was made to Abraham and Christ, not his descendants.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

I don't believe God wanted them to have a kingdom like the other nations but that's what the people wanted.
7 The Lord said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.

The law wasn't part of the promise either but was added.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions,

Why would Paul be preaching about the kingdom and Christ in the last chapter of Acts if Christ hadn't established his kingdom?
30 And he stayed two full years in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered.

 

[lifeisgood]

turbosixx, maybe this study would help you some with your questions about water baptism/baptism:
http://www.biblestudying.net/baptism6.html

 

[turbosixx]

Nick,

Again, Nice neg rep. I particularly took note of your purposeless insult that you added:

It's called MAD for a reason. You have to be mad to believe it and when you don't see it their way they get mad and throw stones because they're perfect. Not all of them but more than enough.

 

[andyc]

How can a Christian truly be a Christian and not bear good fruit?

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.


James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

All that you say is true.

Like the parable of the talents, the talents themselves are gifts. But once the talents are received, they are what do the work.
There's a difference between working for the reward, and allowing the reward work within us.

 

[Nick M]

By what covenant did they receive the forgiveness of sins and receive the Holy Spirit?

None. They have not entered into it yet. Israel was put aside. Read carefully. Something you worker bees can't seem to do. The New Covenant was coming (before casting away) but the old was still in place. It was ready to vanish away. That is in the near future to them. Long after Pentecost.

Hebrews 8

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

In the New Covenant, Israel will keep the statues. He will write it on their hearts. They will be resurrected by the Spirit (Ezekial 37 John 3) and will live forever in their land.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

turbosixx, maybe this study would help you some with your questions about water baptism/baptism:
http://www.biblestudying.net/baptism6.html

That is a study full of errors.

It is not either water or spirit baptism. It is both.

Ignoring the baptism by water at the hands of other saints is like the removal of the wedding gathering from marriage.

You can not be a Madist though---

5. We believe the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant, therefore all must come to salvation through Jesus and the New Covenant (Heb. 8:7-13 & Heb. 10:9). We are not under the letter of the Law, but under the commandments of Christ as found in the Sermon on the Mount and throughout the New Testament (Rom. 6:14, 1 Cor. 9:21, Gal. 3:24:25, Gal. 4:21-5:1, Gal. 6:2).

LA

 

[Cross Reference]

That is a study full of errors.

It is not either water or spirit baptism. It is both.

Ignoring the baptism by water at the hands of other saints is like the removal of the wedding gathering from marriage.

You can not be a Madist though---

5. We believe the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant, therefore all must come to salvation through Jesus and the New Covenant (Heb. 8:7-13 & Heb. 10:9). We are not under the letter of the Law, but under the commandments of Christ as found in the Sermon on the Mount and throughout the New Testament (Rom. 6:14, 1 Cor. 9:21, Gal. 3:24:25, Gal. 4:21-5:1, Gal. 6:2).

LA

Symbolism will never save you. Give it up. Water baptism is nothing more than a testimony of what is supposed to be you committed to God by Jesus Christ that needs to remembered as . . "they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death".
Revelation 12:11 (KJV)

.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Symbolism will never save you. Give it up. Water baptism is nothing more than a testimony of what is supposed to be you committed to God by Jesus Christ that needs to remembered as . . "they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death".
Revelation 12:11 (KJV)

.

You are wrong.

All those who preached Christ in the book of Acts spoke of water baptism in conjunction with believing and receiving the Holy Spirit .

In other words those sent by Christ always preach the same.

Those not sent, preach almost anything.

LA

 

[Cross Reference]

You are wrong.

All those who preached Christ in the book of Acts spoke of water baptism in conjunction with believing and receiving the Holy Spirit .

In other words those sent by Christ always preach the same.

Those not sent, preach almost anything.

LA

Sorry, but that doesn't speak of me being wrong.

 

[achduke]

None. They have not entered into it yet. Israel was put aside. Read carefully. Something you worker bees can't seem to do. The New Covenant was coming (before casting away) but the old was still in place. It was ready to vanish away. That is in the near future to them. Long after Pentecost.

Hebrews 8

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

In the New Covenant, Israel will keep the statues. He will write it on their hearts. They will be resurrected by the Spirit (Ezekial 37 John 3) and will live forever in their land.

This has already happened at Pentecost to some degree and will happen again in the future in the last days. This is a quote of Jeremiah 31:31-35. It is them receiving the Holy Spirit who teaches everyone who believes.

 

[Clete]

None. They have not entered into it yet. Israel was put aside. Read carefully. Something you worker bees can't seem to do. The New Covenant was coming (before casting away) but the old was still in place. It was ready to vanish away. That is in the near future to them. Long after Pentecost.

What do you mean, "None"? I think, unless I misunderstood his question, that Turbosixx was basically asking what covenant was in place when the Twelve received the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. Am I missing something?