ECT How is Paul's message different?

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Danoh

New member
whitestone said:
lol, ok,,,Hebrews 2:5 KJV ,,,are you in your mind in that world or is it in the world to come?
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That passage is referring to the Millennial Reign of Christ.

In which case, the following will be the case...

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

In contrast, the "seen of angels" as an end that Paul is summing up* in 1 Tim. 3:16 is the following...

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Which is the issue of Christ IN YOU the Hope of Glory Himself...

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.

_______________

* Paul has in mind how Body members had conducted themselves in this life, given the mystery of godliness in them - Christ in you; the Hope of Glory Himself.

This...is a very...common theme throughout...Romans through Philemon.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
 
W

whitestone

Well-known member
Danoh said:
That passage is referring to the Millennial Reign of Christ.

In which case, the following will be the case...

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

In contrast, the "seen of angels" as an end that Paul is summing up* in 1 Tim. 3:16 is the following...

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Which is the issue of Christ IN YOU the Hope of Glory Himself...

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.

_______________

* Paul has in mind how Body members had conducted themselves in this life, given the mystery of godliness in them - Christ in you; the Hope of Glory Himself.

This...is a very...common theme throughout...Romans through Philemon.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
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lol, ok but are you already in the world where you will judge the angels or is it the world to come?,,,straight forward question which do you see?
 
D

Danoh

New member
glorydaz said:
You've not even attempted to prove otherwise. Same ol' Danoh. :rolleyes:
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Every aspect of what Paul had meant is laid out passage by passage in that pdf I mentioned to RD.

Also, I've laid out additional passages and thoughts to Whitestone.

More than you have done.

I know, I know, you never read pdfs or watch youtube videos, right, "Yanny and Laurel."

Just you being the same old you.

:rotfl:

Rom. 5:6-8.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Danoh said:
Every aspect of what Paul had meant is laid out passage by passage in that pdf I mentioned to RD.

Also, I've laid out additional passages and thoughts to Whitestone.

More than you have done.

I know, I know, you never read pdfs or watch youtube videos, right, "Yanny and Laurel."

Just you being the same old you.

:rotfl:

Rom. 5:6-8.
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Let's see....a 5 min. video about something I've been curious about, or a 30 or more video about some preacher you recommend on some other subject? :think:

No contest.

However, to make you happy, I did go to a pdf on this and found exactly what RD was saying. Word by word what I have always believed that verse is saying.
 
Clete

Clete

Truth Smacker
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There is an excellent article entitled, "Jesus vs. Paul" at doctrine.org

In it, the author establishes the following points...

Differences of the Ministries of Jesus and Paul

Jesus:
1. Preached the gospel of the kingdom
2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as Israel’s prophetic earthly kingdom
3. Presented Himself as Messiah and King of the Jews (Israel)
4. Preached repentance, water baptism, and faith as necessary for salvation
5. Had Jews only for His audience (2 exceptions)
6. Operated under the Mosaic Law


Paul:
1. Preached the gospel of the grace of God
2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as the heavenly position of the body of Christ
3. Presented Jesus as the risen Lord, Head of the Church, the body of Christ
4. Preached faith alone as necessary for salvation
5. Had Gentiles as his primary audience
6. Operated under grace​

Notice the conversation that ensued in the comments (down below the end of the article) and how it immediately became about whether Paul was a legitimate Apostle. This is always what this topic boils down too. Paul changed everything. There simply is no gospel of grace without Paul - period.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
D

Danoh

New member
Clete said:
There is an excellent article entitled, "Jesus vs. Paul" at doctrine.org

In it, the author establishes the following points...

Differences of the Ministries of Jesus and Paul

Jesus:
1. Preached the gospel of the kingdom
2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as Israel’s prophetic earthly kingdom
3. Presented Himself as Messiah and King of the Jews (Israel)
4. Preached repentance, water baptism, and faith as necessary for salvation
5. Had Jews only for His audience (2 exceptions)
6. Operated under the Mosaic Law


Paul:
1. Preached the gospel of the grace of God
2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as the heavenly position of the body of Christ
3. Presented Jesus as the risen Lord, Head of the Church, the body of Christ
4. Preached faith alone as necessary for salvation
5. Had Gentiles as his primary audience
6. Operated under grace​

Notice the conversation that ensued in the comments (down below the end of the article) and how it immediately became about whether Paul was a legitimate Apostle. This is always what this topic boils down too. Paul changed everything. There simply is no gospel of grace without Paul - period.

Resting in Him,
Clete
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Great, great site: ran across it some years ago - now there is a man who has a great deal of his Acts 9 Dispensationalism down solidly!

:thumb:

Rom. 5:6-8.
 
Clete

Clete

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musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Clete said:
it immediately became about whether Paul was a legitimate Apostle. This is always what this topic boils down too.
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Enemies of the cross and false workers always do that. Paul, properly understood, threatens ALL law-based doctrine...therefore Paul must go...either the man's apostleship itself, or just his doctrine. Either way, same result.
 
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D

Danoh

New member
Clete said:
I think I've seen it before but I've never looked at it in detail. The more I read, the more I like! It really is AWESOME!

Have you read Samdahl's new book, "God’s Programs: An Introduction to Understanding the Bible"?

I just ordered a copy.
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Was not aware of it. Should be an interesting read.

Again, great site; not much he and I might differ in understanding on.

Here is an interesting exchange, with another Acts 9 MAD - in his comments section...

https://doctrine.org/chart-of-gods-programs/chartgodsprograms-2

ChartGodsPrograms.jpg


A comment made about that chart...

Don,

I have a couple of thoughts. If I fold out the part between the dotted lines, God’s Mystery program and Paul disappear. Yet your period for Israel says, Abraham to Paul. Theologically, I agree with you. But I think the death of Stephen was the last opportunity for the Jews (Jewish leaders) to accept the Kingdom in the Book of Acts. And yes, Paul shows up in Acts 8 as Saul, and some other significant things happen in Acts 8 too, but Stephen was the decision point. If you changed your chart to say, Abraham to Stephen, it kind of cuts out Acts 8, figuring the left dotted line represents the conversion of Saul. So, just sharing my thoughts on that. The other thing is that I think Hebrews should be listed with the general Epistles under Israel. I see you list it as transitional, along with the book of Acts. In Christ,
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Don's reply being...

Rob,
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree the crisis point for Israel occurred with the stoning of Stephen. But the gospel of the kingdom continued until the Council of Jerusalem, and hope remained the nation would repent. Technically, it did not officially end until 70 A.D.So the period is transitional. In that accounting, Israel had a 40 year period of testing–from Pentecost to Titus’ legions. It’s difficult to represent these things in a chart. For the big picture, I think it would be confusing to put Stephen as the end.
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It is ever fascinatimg, the finer distinctions between more advanced Acts 9 MADs.

I tend to agree more with that other guy's comment - Paul indicates his hope had been that he "might save some."

While, as early as 1 Thessalonians 2, he writes that "the wrath of God is come upon them to the uttermost" and so on.

Still, not much Don and I might differ on.

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.
 
D

Danoh

New member
whitestone said:
And why,?,,,should we not instead wait and let the self appointed Pope of MAD explain it to Lucy?...
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:rotfl:

In other words, you had no answer so you deflected, and that, by brown-nosing the Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrids on here.

Proving only that you don't even know they are in error.

Here, another opportunity for you to not only brown-nose them some more, but to prove once more you know nothing about their errors.

The following is a comparison between actual Acts 9 Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, and the Hybrid being purported on TOL by some as Acts 9 MAD..

Here is list of 25 of their errors. The actual Acts 9 view on that list is the view held by many throughout the world.

https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.f...0/refutation-of-acts-9-28-hybrid-theology.pdf

So, if I am the Pope, I am far from alone.

Let's see how many of those you can prove the Hybrids on here are right about.

I found not a one.

And that is only 25 of their errors; during the time I have been on here, I've noticed many more.

Of course, you can do more of what they have done in response to that list - deflect, deflect, deflect.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8.
 
Clete

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
musterion said:
Enemies of the cross and false workers always do that. Paul, properly understood, threatens ALL law-based doctrine...therefore Paul must go...either the man's apostleship itself, or just his doctrine. Either way, same result.
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Well, that's quite true but it's not just enemies but otherwise well meaning people who love God and are just victims of bad teaching, which I think probably includes most regular, pew sitting Christians. People tend to believe what they're taught and religious beliefs tend to engender loyalties that become threatened when they hear comments like "the Gospels contain no Christianity" or hear someone teach that Christianity started with someone other than John the Baptist.

That, I think, is why little or no progress is often made in discussions/debates on the topic. It isn't a question that needs answered. It's a threat that needs defeated. It's emotional issue rather than an intellectual one.

You can usually tell when this is the case by simply asking the question, "Why Paul? Where's the need for a thirteenth Apostle?". If they are unwilling to answer that question, you know you're dealing with someone on an emotional level. The more they're willing to engage on that question, the more intellectually honest they're being with you and with themselves but even then it's all but impossible to overcome the emotional inertia required to move them into the Mid-Acts Dispensational camp.

It is important, therefore, to expose people to the truth as early as possible, before they've become emotionally invested/entrenched into the errors that are rampant throughout the Christian church.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
Clete

Clete

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Danoh said:
Was not aware of it. Should be an interesting read.

Again, great site; not much he and I might differ in understanding on.

Here is an interesting exchange, with another Acts 9 MAD - in his comments section...

https://doctrine.org/chart-of-gods-programs/chartgodsprograms-2

ChartGodsPrograms.jpg


A comment made about that chart...



Don's reply being...



It is ever fascinatimg, the finer distinctions between more advanced Acts 9 MADs.

I tend to agree more with that other guy's comment - Paul indicates his hope had been that he "might save some."

While, as early as 1 Thessalonians 2, he writes that "the wrath of God is come upon them to the uttermost" and so on.

Still, not much Don and I might differ on.

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.
Click to expand...

I agree, it would seem that if Israel could have repented all the way up to 79 A.D. that such would have been communicated in Acts.

As for the chart, I always bought into the "Day = 1000 years" idea but I'm not so sure about it now. It seems that things are bit off schedule at this point in that we're well into the 7th millennium at this point with no return of Christ or rapture of the Church. Of course, 6000+ years is a long time and maybe our accounting of it is off and perhaps it doesn't have to be precisely 1000 years per "day". In fact, if the chart's author is correct about 79 AD, maybe we should be prepping for a 2079 AD time frame for Christ's return.

Who knows? It doesn't matter really except as an interesting intellectual exercise. I know it's a lot more interesting to me to discuss details like this than it is to try and get someone to see that Paul's ministry actually existed and that he wasn't merely an extension of that which came before him.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
Clete

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
Danoh said:
:rotfl:

In other words, you had no answer so you deflected, and that, by brown-nosing the Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrids on here.

Proving only that you don't even know they are in error.

Here, another opportunity for you to not only brown-nose them some more, but to prove once more you know nothing about their errors.

The following is a comparison between actual Acts 9 Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, and the Hybrid being purported on TOL by some as Acts 9 MAD..

Here is list of 25 of their errors. The actual Acts 9 view on that list is the view held by many throughout the world.

https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.f...0/refutation-of-acts-9-28-hybrid-theology.pdf

So, if I am the Pope, I am far from alone.

Let's see how many of those you can prove the Hybrids on here are right about.

I found not a one.

And that is only 25 of their errors; during the time I have been on here, I've noticed many more.

Of course, you can do more of what they have done in response to that list - deflect, deflect, deflect.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8.
Click to expand...

This is the very first time I've ever heard the phrase, "Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrid".

Could you give a brief description of one of these hybrids and explain (briefly) why its a big deal?
 
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