Thanks for the great response! Some good stuff to think about.
Your explanation for option 1 doesn't explain the verse I asked about, though. If that is the sense in which Jesus meant He was equal...the Jewish community wouldn't have wanted to kill Him for that. He must've meant "equal" in a different sense. A sense in which they would want to kill Him for it.
I don't disagree with what you have said above. But that doesn't explain the verse I asked about. Again, the Jews wouldn't have wanted to kill Jesus if that is the sense He meant.
The Apostle John tells us that Jesus "made Himself equal with God" and that that is part of the reason that the Jews wanted to kill Him.
How He did that (what He said or did) is a different question.
That He did that is clear. John says so.
So if he knew that He wasn't equal to God, He was lying.
If Jesus didn't know that He wasn't equal to God, but thought that He was, then He was crazy.
I can agree with what you say as far as the meaning of divine. But that is not the only way to use that term.
I don't disagree with what you say above. However, that again doesn't explain the verse in question because the Jews wouldn't have wanted to kill Him if that is what Jesus meant.
Agreed. But here is my question. Nobody but nobody would want to kill you (or Jesus) for what you are saying. So Jesus must've meant something other than what you are saying in order for others to want to kill Him for it.
In a lesser, imitative sense, yes. in an ultimate sense, no we cannot be equal with God. God is all-powerful, we will never be.
Thanks for your thoughts but none of them really explains why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for "making Himself equal to God."
You gave very good reasons for why they should not have wanted to kill Him.
Peace.
Thanks for taking the time to read what I wrote.
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
One of the useful tools I find that works is to go back to the verse in question and find out if I am actually reading it accurately.
Notice that as far as they were concerned he had broken the sabbath.
Had he?
I don't see any record that demonstrates that. Have you found any record that shows that? I don't believe you will find one.
The religious elite, the scribes and Pharisees openly and repeatedly accused him of breaking the Sabbath, but he was not. He would heal someone on the Sabbath and they would accuse him of violating the Sabbath laws, but they were so wrapped up in their strict legalism, they basically ignored the laws of God.
Take Mark 3:1-5 Was Jesus wrong to heal the man on the sabbath?
And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
The religious elite were not interested in learning from Jesus Christ, they were not interested in the helping the man with the withered hand, their only interest was in accusing Jesus.
When Jesus asked them relevant questions, they did not answer, they were not in interested in love, truth, light, God's goodness, now were they?
did Jesus break the Sabbath in Mark 3:1-5?
Or was he doing what should have been done on the Sabbath?
What does this record say Jesus was perturbed by? The hardness of their hearts
Who heart was right in this situation?
a. the religious elite
b. Jesus Christ's
c. the man with the withered hand
d. b and c
e. other
If you were living in that culture, would you be accused by those people if you helped an elderly person who had fallen and was having trouble getting back on his feet?
Based on records like Mark 3:1-5 and others, it is possible you would too be accused of breaking the Sabbath.
Is being kind and helpful to a person in need a violation of the God's law? or a violation of the religious elites traditions?
Notice as well what the religious elite were already motivated to do.
This record was not the initial point where they started to seek to kill him, they already wanted to kill him.
For what? For healing people on the Sabbath without their approval?
For violating their traditions?
For drawing attention to and demonstrating the word and will of God? for loving God and delivering people?
Yes, they were upset because people were hearing scripture and seeing the will of God in action in Jesus Christ's life instead of the religious ritual of the elite
Did Jesus break the Sabbath? No.
Jesus did not break the law of Moses, he understood it for what it was intended for.
It was a day set aside to pay particular and deeply focussed attention on the things of God, to rest from the labors of the week by resting from their labors. To realize that God supplies their need, that when people do their part, God will do his part.
Did Jesus say,"I am equal to God"??
No, he did not.
He said he is the son of God. John 10:
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
All Christians are sons of God, literally,
they are born again of God's spirit, I Peter 1:23, I John 3:1-2, Romans 8:14
Are you a Christian? Then you are a son of God.
Are you God? or a son of God?
Since God is your Father, to you exercise the right to go to your Father whenever you want to and need to?
Does being a son in a family give you rights and privileges that outsiders do not enjoy in your family?
Are you a son of your father? Does that make you equal in some respects to your father? Do you expect to eat of the food he worked to purchase? Did your father eat of the food he earned the right to purchase? Did you, even though you did not have the job that paid for it?
Sounds like you had an equality with your father.
How about your Heavenly Father? do you enjoy the blessings of truth, light, love, God's goodness in your life even though you are not the source of any of those things?
If you don't you should, it is your right to do so. It is your obligation to do so.
God is light, you have God' light in your life. You have an equality with God.
Oh, did you ask?
Thanks for your thoughts but none of them really explains why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for "making Himself equal to God."
Did you ask?
You receive not because you ask not.
Although you did not ask, we learn that even Pilate recognized that the religious elite wanted Jesus dead because of envy.
Matthew 27
17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?
18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.
The religious elite had a great scam going, Jesus upset there apple cart. He was teaching truth which exposed their lies, he was caring about people lives which exposed their self centered motives, he was putting the power of God to use which exposed their weakness and unbelief, he was light which exposed their darkness.
Oh, by the way, John 5:18 does not say Jesus made himself equal to God, it says
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
that Jesus said that God was his Father, which of course is true, God is his father and Jesus said so.
However, does saying that equal making himself equal to God? Like I said, culturally, the the son is equal to his father in many ways, but the father retains his superiority and authority over the son.
Jesus Christ is subordinate to, inferior to and derived from God, his Father.
But was equal to do his Father's will.
I do not read where Jesus said, "I am equal to God" Did I miss that somewhere?
The self righteous religious elite falsely accused him plenty of times.
He knew the law, he did the law, not only did he do the law,he fulfilled the law.
He was that good at doing the law, he fulfilled it.
God is my Father and God is the Father of all Christians. does that mean we are claiming to be equal to God? Does our culture conclude that by saying we are sons of God that we are equal to God? I have never heard that. That is one of many differences between the Eastern culture of the Bible and Western culture
