Help! Assignment on Morality, Politics, and the Noble Lie

[ASOAK7]

Hello all. I have a school assignment that I am working on that requires me to pose some questions related to a certain work or theme my class has looked at over the course of the semester and dialogue with those who respond. I landed on Plato’s Republic. In the Republic, Socrates develops the idea of what he calls the “noble lie.” The noble lie is any sort of falsehood used by the rulers of a city or nation to misdirect and manipulate those they rule to keep them under control and to ensure they do not do anything that would not be in their best interests. In Socrates’ mind, this is a noble gesture, as the common man is incapable of seeing things as they are or knowing how he ought to live his life. As such, it falls to rulers to govern in whatever way they can and to make certain men do not try to rise beyond their stations in life to their own hurt and the hurt of those around them. This kind of mindset seems to dominate the political landscape of today, and it seems that most take it for granted that politicians are disingenuous without asking whether or not such conduct is okay. In light of this discussion and current events such as the Hillary Clinton Benghazi scandal, I would like to pose four questions and would appreciate your feedback:

• Should a political leader like President Obama lie to other world leaders if he thinks such deception would be in the best interest of the American people? To representatives of another branch of our government such as Congress? To American citizens themselves?
• Should the President lie to any of the aforementioned groups to protect or benefit himself or his political party?
• Are there certain circumstances or relationships where such lies are not permissible? Are there certain topics or issues that should not be lied about?
• Does everyone have the right to tell “permissible lies” or only certain people?

 

[fzappa13]

Noble lie ... no such animal but your teacher is tenured for that very purpose. Beware.

 

[Wick Stick]

Should a political leader like President Obama lie to other world leaders if he thinks such deception would be in the best interest of the American people? To representatives of another branch of our government such as Congress? To American citizens themselves?

Should the President lie to any of the aforementioned groups to protect or benefit himself or his political party?

Are there certain circumstances or relationships where such lies are not permissible? Are there certain topics or issues that should not be lied about?

Does everyone have the right to tell “permissible lies” or only certain people?

Ha! I was a political science major, once. Let's see... Plausible Deniability... building vs undermining credibility... omission versus commission, utility, unintended consequences... Machiavelli!

But to answer theologically rather than politically... all lies have negative consequences. Not always for the liar; sometimes for the one lied to. Therefore, lying is to be avoided. To expect positive consequences rather than negative ones from a lie is a delucsion.

Biblically, lying is permissible to save a life and for no other reason that I know of. Even there, it is the exchange of a bad consequence for a less-bad consequence, and not a net positive.

Jarrod

 

[Bradley D]

The "Noble Lie" sounds rather utilitarian. Being what one does for the greatest good no matter what. I feel that is the way many politicians work today. They feel it is all right to lie for what they consider to be a greater good. I have yet to see the good from it.

 

[csuguy]

It seems to me that in answering these questions, you need to distinguish the "Noble Lie" from lying in general. Plato's/Socrates' "Noble Lie" is rooted first and foremost in the idea that those you are lying to are incapable of understanding the matter at hand; their reasoning capacity is fundamentally deficient in comparison to the one giving the lie. Their lack of understanding is what leads them to do wrong, and they lack the capacity to learn. So then, the intent of the Noble Lie is not merely to protect people, but to guide them into doing what is right based upon their limited reasoning capacity.

This is analogous to how you might teach morals to a child who isn't yet fully aware of how their actions effect others: "do it because I say so, and if you don't you'll be punished." You teach them to do the right thing, but for the wrong reasons - albeit, reasons they can understand.

There are a couple problems with the Nobe Lie. The first is that there is some inherent elitism involved in the Noble Lie - you assume that the one being lied too is incapable of understanding the truth. If they could understand it, then lying ceases to fall under Socrates'/Platos' Noble Lie. However, people aren't as incapable of learning as these philosophers thought. Indeed - they didn't believe one truly learned anything - but that you only remembered what you always knew. As such, the premise for a Noble Lie is questionable at best.

The second problem is that people are doing things for the wrong reasons, which can lead to a worse state than before. To continue with the analogy of teaching a child morality - if he is never taught the real reasons for doing X or not doing Y, but retains the primitive understanding of "do it or else" - the child will eventually grow up and realize that their parents have less and less ability to control them. Eventually they will be legal adults and the rules established by their parents become meaningless; they have lost their primary reason for following their parents instructions. They may accept following the laws of the land in exchange, but these are usually a subset of the morals that parents teach. In addition, if the law of the land is in contradiction to what is morally right - they will adopt the morally incorrect law of the land since they will fear reprisal from the authorities and value this over doing what is right for the right reasons.

A third problem is that people are far more capable of reason and learning than Socrates/Plato realized. Even if specific individuals get stuck in their ways - many people are capable of questioning what they have been taught and will eventually reject the Noble Lies they are taught. The problem is that in rejecting the lie - that is, the reason for doing or not doing X - they often reject the good practice that they were directed in doing through the lie, even if there do exist good reasons for it. The Noble Lie can thus lead to a worse state than before.

 

[Truster]

There are no white lies and certainly no noble lies. There is however a father of lies and he is the great deceiver of mankind.

Having said that Satan is not a free agent and is often sent by the Eternal Almighty to be a lying spirit.

''And Yah Veh said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so''.

The greater good is the will and purpose of the Eternal Almighty, amen.

 

[Jonahdog]

There are no white lies and certainly no noble lies. There is however a father of lies and he is the great deceiver of mankind.

Having said that Satan is not a free agent and is often sent by the Eternal Almighty to be a lying spirit.

''And Yah Veh said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so''.

The greater good is the will and purpose of the Eternal Almighty, amen.

Your god sends Satan? More interesting theology. You god is perhaps incapable of lying so he has someone else do it for him?

 

[Truster]

Your god sends Satan? More interesting theology. You god is perhaps incapable of lying so he has someone else do it for him?

You have no understanding and so these truths seem contradictory to you, but they are not. Anything that the Eternal Almighty does is good and upright, because He is a law unto Himself. His intents are perfect, because He is perfect.

There is a reason for the creation of mutable angels and this is the reason. That their evil and wicked intentions can be used unto the glory of the Eternal Almighty. He utilizes evil in the punishment of the wicked and of sin. Just as the Eternal Father utilized evil men in the punishment of sin in His Beloved Son. Acts 2:23 KJV

''Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of Elohim, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:''

 

[ASOAK7]

Thank you all so very much for your input! I am hoping to respond with a few questions for each contributor in turn in the near future but wanted to be sure to let you all know how much I appreciate you taking the time to assist me on this!

 

[fzappa13]

Da nada.