Hello!

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benstenson

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Hi everyone,

My name is Benjamin (or Ben). I found this site through wiki's open theism page (I think). I'm pretty excited about this open theology stuff. I learned about it recently and have been trying to think it all through and get to the bottom of it.

I don't know how long it would take me to read through the whole Archive thread on open theism so I'll just ask a question here and maybe someone can point me in the right direction?

I think that open theism only makes sense (so far, to me) if time doesn't exist. I've been thinking about what time actually is and I've almost concluded that it is purely a mental/conceptual framework or process. I don't think it is possible to be "inside" or "outside" of time since time is possibly only a label for a class of mental action or something like that. I don't think that objects have to exist within mysterious "dimensions" (which supposedly have some ontological weight) in order to exist, or have length, width, etc. or to move and change. After (or before) all, God lives and changes in the sense of having thought and emotion and volition. I don't think God requires a "dimension" to be alive "in". So why would we?

If time doesn't exist then God cannot be outside of it or transcend it or have experiential knowledge of "the future". He would only anticipate changes via prediction and determination, not through experience. Then, obviously, free will would escape prediction at least in general, and you'd have to choose between fatalism and a living God.

Does anybody already think this or anything like it? Or is this wrong?

I look forward to discussing and appreciate any help with this. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss and sorry to get into so much detail on my intro post if that's against the rules.

Thanks!
Benjamin
 
Nathon Detroit

Nathon Detroit

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That's good Ben. Time isn't a thing.... it's a concept, a description of a sequential reality. The only thing that really exists is the ever passing moment.

Welcome to TOL you should fit it nicely here.
 
csuguy

csuguy

Well-known member
Welcome!

Time is simply "the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another." (dictionary.com). Even God is "subject" to time.

For God to be outside of time would be to imply that God doesn't perform actions in a sequential manner. If it helps - don't think of time as a thing - for all things were created by God. If you must think of it as a thing, you can still say that God created it and yet is also subject to it - because God would be the first one to be able to act - and time is defined by the sequence of events (or actions) that take place.
 
Stripe

Stripe

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Hi, Ben :)

I hope you enjoy your time here. In that sense I hope your time is real. Otherwise, I too, agree :)
 
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benstenson

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Thanks everyone. This message board looks like fun.
 
GuySmiley

GuySmiley

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Welcome Ben! Yeah, thats how I think of time also. But your post got me thinking that time as we experience it could be a created thing. But in the open view God simply will not mess with it. Like free will. God CAN reach into our heads and make us think things, He simply doesn't. Like I said, I don't believe that, but I suppose someone could still hold the open view and believe we live inside a created thing called time which God is outside of.

I think determinists limit God's power, something they accuse us of doing all the time. They seem to believe God is so powerful, He can't help but know the future (in a determinist way). But we believe He is capable of creating a universe including truely free-willed beings, and inspite of that, He will still get his way!
 
Town Heretic

Town Heretic

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chickenman said:
It's only fun until someone gets his eye shot out (which happens surprisingly often around here).
Click to expand...

But once that happens you're wild...which can be a plus. :think:

Hiya, newbie. :e4e: Good luck.

csuguy said:
Time is simply "the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another." (dictionary.com).
Click to expand...
Pay no attention to him. He's been like that ever since someone sold him a knock-off Oyster...like those would even have Mickey Mouse hands. Sheesh. :plain:
 
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