Greetings!
- Thread starter AlephTav
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AlephTav
New member
That doesn't ring a bell, sorry.
Dena
New member
They believing in trying very hard to convert Jews.
Mission Statement: We exist to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide.
Statement of Faith: We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are divinely inspired, verbally and completely inerrant in the original writings and of supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and life.
We recognize the value of traditional Jewish literature, but only where it is supported by or conformable to the Word of God. We regard it as in no way binding upon life or faith.
We believe in one sovereign God, existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, perfect in holiness, infinite in wisdom, unbounded in power and measureless in love; that God is the source of all creation and that through the immediate exercise of His power all things came into being.
We believe that God the Father is the author of eternal salvation, having loved the world and given His Son for its redemption.
We believe that Jesus the Messiah was eternally pre-existent and is co-equal with God the Father; that He took on Himself the nature of man through the virgin birth so that He possesses both divine and human natures.
We believe in His sinless life and perfect obedience to the Law; in His atoning death, burial, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, high-priestly intercession and His personal return in power and glory.
We believe that the Holy Spirit is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Son; that He was active in the creation of all things and continues to be so in providence; that He convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and that He regenerates, sanctifies, baptizes, indwells, seals, illumines, guides and bestows His gifts upon all believers.
We believe that God created man in His image; that because of the disobedience of our first parents at the Garden of Eden they lost their innocence and both they and their descendants, separated from God, suffer physical and spiritual death and that all human beings, with the exception of Jesus the Messiah, are sinners by nature and practice.
We believe that Jesus the Messiah died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice; that all who believe in Him are justified, not by any works of righteousness they have done, but by His perfect righteousness and atoning blood and that there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.
We believe that Israel exists as a covenant people through whom God continues to accomplish His purposes and that the Church is an elect people in accordance with the New Covenant, comprising both Jews and Gentiles who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah and Redeemer.
We believe that Jesus the Messiah will return personally in order to consummate the prophesied purposes concerning His kingdom.
We believe in the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, the everlasting blessedness of the saved and the everlasting conscious punishment of the lost.
AlephTav
New member
I would agree with most of those beliefs, I think. I'm only hypothetically speaking here, because I don't know what their specific practices look like, but I don't like the idea of adopting "Jewish" or Old Testament practices for the sole purpose of converting Jews.
I believe there is 1 Israel, and its not a national, or physical Israel. Israel is God's Kingdom, His Remnant, His Bride. And I believe it consists of all people who worship the 1 true God through the revelation and work of Jesus. Now, I think that includes Jews (by birth) who still abide by the Torah, as well as former-Gentile, New Testament believers. (I don't like the concept of Gentile-Believers. It's an oxymoron at its root).
As you follow God in a real and vibrant relationship, and as you continue to study His written word, he causes you to mature and progress in how you worship Him and follow Him. I believe that worship includes the Torah as well as the New Testament commands, and as you mature, the Spirit continues to reveal to you different ways to worship Him. I think that should eventually start including Torah principles.
All that to say, if the Jews for Jesus are following Torah for the sole purpose of converting Jews, I think they've missed the point. But if anyone is following the Torah, or even "Jewish practices", because it deepens their relationship with God, I'm all for it.
I believe there is 1 Israel, and its not a national, or physical Israel. Israel is God's Kingdom, His Remnant, His Bride. And I believe it consists of all people who worship the 1 true God through the revelation and work of Jesus. Now, I think that includes Jews (by birth) who still abide by the Torah, as well as former-Gentile, New Testament believers. (I don't like the concept of Gentile-Believers. It's an oxymoron at its root).
As you follow God in a real and vibrant relationship, and as you continue to study His written word, he causes you to mature and progress in how you worship Him and follow Him. I believe that worship includes the Torah as well as the New Testament commands, and as you mature, the Spirit continues to reveal to you different ways to worship Him. I think that should eventually start including Torah principles.
All that to say, if the Jews for Jesus are following Torah for the sole purpose of converting Jews, I think they've missed the point. But if anyone is following the Torah, or even "Jewish practices", because it deepens their relationship with God, I'm all for it.
Dena
New member
So Christians are spiritual Israel? This is replacement theology, correct? I didn't think Messianics were into that sort of thing much.
Gentile means you are not a part of the tribe. So in order to cease being a Gentile you'd have to be a physical part of the tribe. That's how it works. Why would you want to redefine the word?
By the way, I don't use the term anyway. I just say "Non-Jew".
genuineoriginal
New member
The Messianics I know of do not believe we are "spiritual Israel" and deny replacement theology.
They teach that non-jewish believers are "grafted in" to Israel.
The "grafted in" teaching also includes the idea that non-believing Jews have been broken off and are no longer part of Israel, as is written in the Torah, "that soul shall be cut off from Israel."
Grafted in comes from these verses of the New Testament:
Romans 11:16-27 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. |
AlephTav
New member
Christians are a part of Spiritual Israel, which I believe includes Jesus-believing Jews, and maybe even non-believing Jews. (Still praying about that one, that's a complicated one). I don't believe Christians have replaced the Jews in any way.
I take a different approach to the definition of gentile. Once you're grafted into Israel, I don't think you're apart from Israel, or a completely different tribe; I think you're Israel. You're grafted in, thus the term "gentile" doesn't really mean much to me.
Dena
New member
I wasn't sure if that was a part of it. I have met a few who agree with that statement but I am on a Messianic Forum where most do not agree.
AlephTav
New member
genuineoriginal
New member
There's your 1st problem. Most Messianic don't agree about anything.
That proves we are "grafted in"
If you ask a question to 2 Jews, you will get 3 opinions.
:rotfl:
Dena
New member
Okay, I think that's odd. So I guess we're not going to agree on the "gentile" terminology. The term may not mean much to you but it means something to a multitude of other people. :thumb:
You've taken the Torah and added your own second edition to it insisting they both go together. You've taken the people who wrote the book and tossed them out now saying Christians are the true Israel. You've taken the terminology and changed it to fit your own criteria. That's sounds a lot like replacement to me?
AlephTav
New member
If I've given off that impression I believe all those things, I apologize. That's not what I believe at all.
I believe in 1 Word of God written by 1 God which includes the Torah, the Prophets, and the New Testament. They all agree with each other and communicate the same message. I believe the people who wrote the Torah and the prophets worshipped the same God we do. They are just as much Israel as Jesus-believing saints are. Israel is God's Kingdom and His remnant. It's not solely Christians, and not solely Jews.
To me, the word Gentile is no different than Judah, Simeon Rueben or Levi. Those things indicate your background, but they don't neccessarily indicate your identity. There are Gentiles who are not part of God's Kingdom, just there are members of the tribe of Levi who were not part of God's Kingdom. Those backgrounds have a purpose, but they all pale in comparison to the fact that you are Israel.
welcome :wave:
If you ask ONE Jew a question you get three opinions :rotfl:
If you ask a Brit a question, you'll get the answer, just be sure it is the opposite of what he believes.