ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

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If that's who you trust you would believe what he said.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

"And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent." John 17:3 (AMP)

Poses a few questions, doesn't it?
 

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1 Cor 15:3 is part of the Gospel but you hesitate to preach it - so who is rebelling against the Gospel message?

#79



How many times does it have to be said:
Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

So you would preach about Christ's resurrection and the sightings of him but for some odd reason leave out the bit about His crucifixion for 'our sins'.

Gospel rebellion you say? Quite evidently, your Gospel is: God does not love all men, but God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:14-15 proves that God loves all since ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION of the bitten Israelites were provided for. And you can't refute it.

When your theology leads to arrant contradiction then something's got to be wrong with your doctrine.

I believe the issue lies within the foreknowledge of God. Indeed HE doesn't love ALL men because the direction; the "set" of mans freewill being determined beforehand which "sets" His disposition towards them before they are born.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I [fore]knew you; and before you camest forth out of the womb I [therefore] sanctified you, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)

[emphasis mine]

That verse in NO WAY infers God decreed Jeremiah to faith but rather God foreknew his heart and soul that would enable Him to "set" his life for His service..Otherwise, it is this way with God's love:

". . . I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" Exodus 20:5 (KJV)

That revealed about God, whose will do you believe is stronger? Whose will determines the love of God? Why does John 3:16 read "might be saved" except because of man's freewill to choose? There no God decreeing anything; predestinating man to perdition. Love doesn't work that way. Sinful man paves his own way to hell.

Though I write this to you, it is meant more for Nang. . :)
 

Sonnet

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I believe issue lies within the foreknowledge of God. Indeed HE doesn't love ALL men. The direction; the "set" of their freewill being determined beforehand which "sets" His disposition before they are born.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I [fore]knew you; and before you camest forth out of the womb I [therefore] sanctified you, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)

[emphasis mine]

That verse in NO WAY infers God decreed Jeremiah to faith but rather He foreknew his heart and soul that would enable God to "set" his life for His service..

Loved in the sense of His provision (from a man's perspective), but not loved in the foreknowledge of their ultimate rejection of Him. The offer of salvation is real and reachable...through faith.
 

Cross Reference

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Loved in the sense of His provision (from a man's perspective), but not loved in the foreknowledge of their ultimate rejection of Him. The offer of salvation is real and reachable...through faith.

But then again, that is all predetermined by the foreknowledge of God that set things in motion.

BTW: What was God's provision that makes salvation possible; that must be believed on as fact?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

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But why can't the noun Hamartia include the actual sin acts?

It DOES... as the source FOR them. But if one doesn't understand the breadth of ALL Greeks nouns being anarthrous, and THEN having the article added; the nearly-endless depth of meaning is lost because the English language simply cannot process all that structural information that is innately imbedded in Greek noun constructs.

Surely translators, if they were aware of that which you claim, would have rendered 1 Cor 15:3 differently wouldn't they? They would have 'qualitative characteristics' surely:

'Christ died for the inner qualitative characteristics of the sin condition of us.'

No. They would render it as a word in its direct form. It's the appropriate plural form with the article. The text itelf is not a lexicon, and translation is daunting enough with balancing word-for-word literality and thought-for-thought literality. Adding such lexical minutiae to the text would give us a New Testament of extreme length.

And you have interposed anarthrous for articular above. The Greek article attached to plural hamartia is more than source OR act, OR sourc AND act combined. In Greek, the article makes the noun into a stand-alone concept, and can personify the noun. It serves to nominalize or conceptualize.

To quote Wallace (with him also including a quote from Robertson):
"'The article is never meaningless in Greek, though it often fails to correspond with the English idiom.... Its free use leads to exactness and finesse.' In the least, we cannot treat it lightly, for its presence or absence is the crucial element to unlocking the meaning of scores of passages in the New Testament."


Therefore, Wallace tells us that the main function of the Greek article is "to nominalize something that would otherwise not be considered a concept," and "to conceptualize." In saying this, he basically means that an article by itself, or when it is packaged together with another word or phrase, will most often form an expression that can be treated as a noun — as a complete idea of something or someone, as a whole and fully defined concept in one's thoughts, as a view or picture of a total entity in the mind.

As Wallace explains, "... the article is able to turn just about any part of speech into a noun and, therefore, a concept. For example, [the adjective] 'poor' expresses a quality, but the addition of an article turns it into an entity, 'the poor.' It is this ability to conceptualize that seems to be the basic force of the article." Prepositional phrases, adjectives, infinitives and other phrases or expressions can all be turned into 'concepts,' into things, into nouns. English articles hold a bit of this ability, but they do not bear nearly as much of the broad and powerful ability of the Greek article.

So the power of the article is in its ability to conceptualize. Then, when it comes to actually using this core power, a great number of different functions can be performed. Of course, there are times when the Greek article functions much like an English definite article, indicating that the noun or substantive is a particular one, not just any one. However, more of its functions revolve around the broader role of identifying some person, persons, thing or things. Wallace tells us "it is used predominantly to stress the identity of an individual or class or quality." The Greek article creates an identifiable picture out of the word or words following it.

The purpose of the article added to plural hamartia is to personify those who have plural sins as sinners because they are the source for the acts. It's not to point to the acts, but to the source of the acts; and it's the singular inner quality and activity of the sin condition and the plurality of the effects of that condition that produce the outward plurality of actions.

But the articular is not to just identify the actions, but to attribute their source as the void in man's inner character failing to meet the standard of God's righteousness, thus inevitably resulting in conduct that also fails to meet the standard of God's righteousness.

The article serves to not merely identify actions, but to provide the conceptualization that those acts are the result of an inner condition. Economy of action is not incidental, but indicates an inability to exhibit and/or accomplish the righteousness of God by intention.

Still not clear why you also further distinguish the anarthrous and articular of hamartia thus:\

Innner:
Hamartia articular (singular) - Inner Condition (sin in the nature and members)
Hamartia anarthrous (singular) - Every inner qualitative characteristic and functional activity of the condition
Hamartiai anarthrous (plural) - All inner qualitative characteristics and functional activities of the condition

Inward to Outward:
Hamartiai articular (plural) - All individual anarthrous facets as inner demonstration
Hamartano (verb) - Bringing forth the noun into action as the verb
Hamartiai articular (plural) - All individual anarthrous facets as outer demonstration


But, with respect, I keep asking for the reasoning behind these distinctions. The subtlties you delineate are quite baffling.

Yes, I know. And that's because you are an English thinker/speaker attempting to understand Greek noun constructs in arrears, and English has no grid for qualitative things. English quantifies. English has no equivalent for many nuances. English has no cases for nouns, either. Nouns in English are nebulous, but English speakers consider them very concrete because it's their baseline epistemology.

Language formats the sub-conscious and conscious mind in many ways. English formats nouns with no cases and no qualitative distinctions whatsoever. And due to its low-context nature, English doesn't depend on definitions for words as much as it does concepts from phraseology.

Whereas a Greek noun being anarthrous provides broad qualitative considerations and the possibility of adding the article to increase understanding by individual words co-opping other words or a phrase to conceptualize at the word level, English does that by phraseology and subjecting the nouns and their definitions to the phrase.

For instance...
"I love my mother." "I love my wife."
In English, the functional definition of the word love is determined by the entire context of the phrase; so English speakers don't confuse the differing applications of love, even though it's the same word.

But Greek would use different words for love, each with rich differences in meaning, to the point that 'mother' and 'wife' don't provide the meaning for the word 'love'.

"I love ice cream" or "I love football" or "I love the beach" or "I love my pet" all have different meanings for the same word that are determined by another word. In Greek, the anarthrous sense is always present; and the article can be added for emphasis that turns the entire phrase into a noun as a stand-alone concept to be an entity in the mind.

For example... If a table is holding up a vase and candle, while also having an entire array of dishes for dining; its is not "tabling" to be "doing" this "holding up" of all these other things. It's the very qualitative characteristics of the "it-ness" of a table to have this latent functionality and activity. One would never refer to such "tabling" as a verb. That's the anarthrous Greek noun. Qualitative characteristics and functional activity, but never as "doing" like a verb.

Adding the article not only particularizes, but personifies and conceptualizes (and several other functions). So THE sin personifies someone as having an inner sin condition. THE sins personifies the plurality of inner functionalities, whether they come forth into individual manifested actions or not.

A murderer is a murderer in his heart before ever committing the acting and resulting established act/ion of murder. Likewise, it's the inner qualities and (dys-)functionalities of hatred, envy, and whatever else that culminate in any such act as murder.

This "concupiscence" in the heart is considered no differently than actions. Even the Mosaic Law was predicated more upon the heart than the actions, because it was a covenant, not legislative codification. That's what Jesus took issue with amongst the Pharisees. They had abandoned the covenantal nature of the Mosaic Law to make it only a human system of justice for the Theocracy by exhibiting behavior modification rather than keeping the Law from the heart.

Modern English speakers are the ones who separate the inner condition from outer conduct by misrepresenting renderings such as in 1Corinthians 15:3. This isn't referring to a columnar listing of outward acts alone. It's intrinsically referring to an entire conceptualization of the sinner from the inside out, as evidenced by the plurality of resulting actions. So the focus is on the sin condition as the source of it all, not just the outer behavior that can often just be modified or justified. The indication is much more than that which was on the far side of the verb.


Greek nouns are ALL anarthrous. The article is added to anarthrous nouns. It's not an either-or. The anarthrous noun either doesn't have the article or it has the article added. And the article is never meaningless to only specify, even though specificity and identity is the threshhold of its meaning.

That's quite a claim.

It's a fact of low-context languages. English provides almost infinite opportunity for misrepresentation of every word. That's largely why doctrinal variance has exploded since the Reformation. English.

And yet... As virtually the lowest-context langauge extant in human history, it also has the greatest capacity to ultimately represent truth because of its generic adapatable structure. But one must be meticulous in translation with an understanding of what is missing from the English language and what it substitutes for that which is present in donor languages translated into English.

I'm not following you here.

That's because poieo doesn't fit a simplistic English grid, just like most other Greek verbs from their noun counterparts.

Poieo is the most common action word for "doing" in Greek, and it's worth months and months of accessing and acquiring an understanding of all that it includes.

It's an artist's term, like for painting. But even as a verb for action, it is never referring to the brushstrokes of the painter while painting. It only refers to the general doing and the done. The brushstrokes are implicitly included. They're not considered separately. They're not really considered at all.

It's about that which is inside the artist being brought forth as the finished result of the masterpiece. So the corollary is God bringing forth the masterpiece of His artistry in humanity. The same is true very explicity for the poet and the poem. So poieo is about the artist and the finished art. The poet and the finished poem.

It's not about the brushstrokes or the canvas. It's not about the penstrokes or the paper. The canvas doesn't determine the painting, though there must be a certain qualitative kind of canvas. It can't be a piece of burlap sack. The paper doesn't determine the writing, though there must be a certain qualitative kind of paper. It can't be a sheer napkin.

The painting doesn't paint itself, or indeed help paint itself. The poem doesn't pen itself, or indeed help pen itself.

Certainly, your claims make the translators in error since 'sins' (hamartiōn) for the English may include the actual actions. Not one of the versions (of 1 Cor 15:3) I have read thus far reflects your nuanced distinction.

It's not an either-or. That's English vagueries. It's the Greek article not merely particularizing resulting actions, but conceptualizing and personifying the entire phrase as indicating the interal source for all the acting and actions. The emphasis is always on the source and the qualitative nature of the noun/s.

English doesn't even begin to translate Greek nouns. That's why it's called the death of the letter and the life of the Spirit.

Too much dead letter is the problem.
 

Cross Reference

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Would you clarify please?

The serpent on the cross was geographically resticted to the wilderness experience as opposed to the "fact' of what the universal provision of redemption accomplished.

How true is this declaration:

By (1)redemption are we saved through (2)salvation by our faith in Jesus Christ.

(1) by a man
(2) by God
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Those drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit do not remain contentious or rebellious against the Gospel message.

Time will tell with this poster . . .

It depends on WHICH Gospel you're speaking about? The TRUE Gospel of Grace or "Another gospel" such as Calvinism portrays?
 

Sonnet

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The serpent on the cross was geographically resticted to the wilderness experience as opposed to the "fact' of what the universal provision of redemption accomplished.

But Jesus points to the Old Testament passage to show us something about his crucifixion. Since all those in need of a cure are provided for, and the source of an analogy yields understanding regarding the target, then all men are provided for too.

How true is this declaration:

By (1)redemption are we saved through (2)salvation by our faith in Jesus Christ.

(1) by a man
(2) by God

Could you clarify please?
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Make NO mistake about it, my fellow TOL posters, in this Dispensation of Grace there's only one true Gospel and that Gospel is the Gospel that The Apostle Paul preached. That Gospel is available to ALL of humanity. However, it must be understood that not ALL will accept the Grace Gospel and will actually reject it for Another gospel. Calvinism MUST be accepted as "another gospel" for its preachings do not match the teachings of Paul. Anything that is different than what Paul preaches is false and must be abandoned. Paul preached: Salvation by God's Grace through our faith alone. Calvinists and others misinterpret Paul and either add or take away from his teachings.

The Ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave Paul the Grace Gospel and subsequently Paul was made The Apostle to the Gentiles. Today, we still follow Paul's Gospel that was given to him by the Lord Jesus Christ. That same Gospel is open to both Jew and Gentle alike. To say that God "chose" a few Elect individuals to save and damned the rest to eternal torment is not true, it is a lie. God desires ALL men to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Satan would desire people to think that only a few will be saved. In truth, God wants ALL to be saved. Calvinism limits God's Message to the world. Christ died for the sins of ALL humanity, not just a few so called Elects. Christ paid the price for ALL men's sins, past, present and future sins. However, only those who hear the Gospel Message and place ALL their faith in Christ as their Savior will reap the benefits of Christs death and resurrection. Those who reject the Gospel will someday stand before God and be judged, not according to their sins but according to their works. Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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The Holy Spirit draws ALL humanity to the Gospel of Christ. In order to be sealed, indwelt, and baptized (not by water but by the Holy Spirit) into the Body of Christ, one must place ALL their faith in Christ. This Spiritual process can only occur after one hears the Gospel and responds in faith. Where does one receive faith? The Bible states: Romans 10:17 " So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (The Bible.) Calvinists teach that one must first be "regenerated" and then, they will receive "saving faith." This is a lie. ALL of humanity is capable of placing their faith in Christ or something else. Calvinists do not believe in "free-will," they are wrong about that. God created us ALL with a free-will. The free-will of mankind can be witnessed in both the Old and New Testament. Although, the Calvinist denies this fact. One need only look at this Scripture verse in order to see the free-will of humanity: Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Christ laments the fact that He (God in the flesh) desired for Israel to worship Him, yet, time and again they would "choose" to worship idols instead of the one true God. For it is Christ (God the Son) who created ALL that is. Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

Grosnick Marowbe

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I would admonish ALL posters on TOL to read and study both the Old and New Testaments. Word for word, name by name and cover to cover. If you're seeking eternal life, it's best if you read/study the writings of The Apostle Paul, Romans through Philemon. In those writings, you'll see the Grace Gospel for today being taught by the one who received it directly from The Ascended Lord Jesus Christ. You'll only find salvation in the Scriptures. The Scriptures are The written Word of God Himself. God the Holy Spirit inspired a chosen group of men to write the Bible. It contains what God wants us to know about Himself and His dealings with His creation.
 

patrick jane

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Banned
I would admonish ALL posters on TOL to read and study both the Old and New Testaments. Word for word, name by name and cover to cover. If you're seeking eternal life, it's best if you read/study the writings of The Apostle Paul, Romans through Philemon. In those writings, you'll see the Grace Gospel for today being taught by the one who received it directly from The Ascended Lord Jesus Christ. You'll only find salvation in the Scriptures. The Scriptures are The written Word of God Himself. God the Holy Spirit inspired a chosen group of men to write the Bible. It contains what God wants us to know about Himself and His dealings with His creation.


Good Post !!!
 

Cross Reference

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But Jesus points to the Old Testament passage to show us something about his crucifixion. Since all those in need of a cure are provided for, and the source of an analogy yields understanding regarding the target, then all men are provided for too.

The serpent was "fact". It does not require faith to believe a fact. What was the requirement for those for healing? Faith. They were told what the serpent-pole accomplishes and where to find it. They had to believe for it, show up to see it or die. Likewise does the cross of Christ accomplish the same thing.

It is a "Fact". It must be approached and believe for what it has accomplished. "Fact" with "faith" mingled for healing otherwise redemption avails nothing.


(1) "Fact" a sinless man's death upon a cross unto redemption

(2) "Faith" in the death of that man, hanging on a cross, appropiates His life.

1. is by man. 2. is by God. Without the first, God could not have performed the second.

"... if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you." Romans 8:11 (AMP)

Hope that helps to see that in both instances God's grace, though provided, was contigient upon man appropiating it and that of himself upon being given no other option if he wanted life eternal.
 
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