God's prescriptive will and His decretive will

[Nathon Detroit]

This is a continuation from the Open Theism thread. I wanted to separate it out so we could focus in on it.

Let me set it up...

On the other thread I asked Jim... "Does God's "prescriptive will" obey/follow His "decretive will" in every and all cases?"

To which Jim responded...

No. In fact, rarely does God's prescriptive will line up with His decretive will. For example, God prescription is that each and every man repent and submit to His law. But God's decree is that most men are unrepentant and reject His law. And all of it is for God's good purposes (i.e. His decretive will).

Thanks for your questions,
AATGD, OC.
TITR,
:j

Thanks Jim. I wonder why God would intentionally decree things that go against His will? That seems to be my biggest stumbling block regarding your position.

Let me try to explain how I view God's will. (then you can mock my position)

(keep in mind this is just an analogy it will have flaws and break down in parts, so humor me)

Imagine a dirt path leading through a forest. The path has boundaries (say like a fence). You cannot go outside the path (the fence keeps you on the path). You also cannot go backwards on the path, you must keep moving forward.

So, you keep moving forward and you cannot leave the path.

Yet as you move along the path you can freely choose how you move down the path. You can walk on the right side or you might choose to walk on the left side. You might trip and fall! You might skip down the path. Maybe you will sing or hum or whistle as you walk down the path. The way you walk down the path is almost completely up to you.

The path is like God's decretive will (as you call it). God has set a boundary that keeps our wills limited. Our will is free but not unlimited. It's constrained to the path i.e., God has set how wide the path is and God knows when the path will turn or when the path will end. We cannot thwart the overall layout of the path.

Now...
God doesn't want us to trip and scratch our knee. He doesn't want us to walk on the left side of the path, He wants us to walk on the right side of the path. God knows the best way to walk down the path and He tells us all sorts of principles that help us to know the best way to walk down the path. He doesn't want us hurting others on the path along the way etc. etc. etc., all of this stuff within the boundary of the path is God's prescriptive will (as you call it). God doesn't use His decretive will to make us fall and hurt ourselves or hurt others on the path, He only uses His decretive will as a boundary for the path.

That's the way I see God's prescriptive will and His decretive will.

It seems to me that you believe that God's decretive will not only defines the path but also every detail of how we walk down the path, i.e., how we hurt others on the path, how and when we fall, and even how the dust kicks up when we hit the ground etc. etc. etc. I have a hard time understanding how God's prescriptive will comes into play in any real way under your view. But I fully admit I could just be misunderstanding your position and I don't want to do that.

Maybe you could use my analogy (about the path of life) and tell me how you think your belief about God's will(s) fit into my analogy.

Again, thanks for all your effort on TOL, I really do appreciate you and all the thought and compassion you display on TOL.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Are there really such words as "prescriptive will" and "decretive will"?:squint:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Are there really such words as "prescriptive will" and "decretive will"?:squint:

I don't know... but if there isn't, there should be.

"prescriptive will" and "decretive will" are Jim's terms, that's why I am using them, not to mention that off the top of my head I can't think of any better terms so I am thankful Jim thought of them.

 

[Agape4Robin]

I don't know... but if there isn't, there should be.

"prescriptive will" and "decretive will" are Jim's terms, that's why I am using them, not to mention that off the top of my head I can't think of any better terms so I am thankful Jim thought of them.

Thanks Knight!:knight:

And where would I find the description of these terms?:idunno:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Thanks Knight!:knight:

And where would I find the description of these terms?:idunno:

Well... you could read my opening post in this thread where I expalin how I view the terms.

Here are a couple quotes from Jim that might help you understand how he views the terms...

Disobedience to God's prescriptive will is true disobedience. There's no such thing as "obeying" or "disobeying" God's decretive will. It is inexorable.

No. In fact, rarely does God's prescriptive will line up with His decretive will. For example, God prescription is that each and every man repent and submit to His law. But God's decree is that most men are unrepentant and reject His law. And all of it is for God's good purposes (i.e. His decretive will).

Thanks for your questions,
AATGD, OC.
TITR,
:j

 

[godrulz]

A decretal system and a 'two wills' concept are deductive attempts to prop up a flawed theology. They are not inductive or based on sound exegesis. The mental gymnastics reminds me of Molinism's confusing ideas (that do not resolve the problematic issues).

 

[Nathon Detroit]

A decretal system and a 'two wills' concept are deductive attempts to prop up a flawed theology. They are not inductive or based on sound exegesis. The mental gymnastics reminds me of Molinism's confusing ideas (that do not resolve the problematic issues).

I think I disagree.

Even from the OV perspective an argument can be made that God has more than one type of will.

After all... God wills that we do not hurt one another yet He also wills to give us a will of our own in which we often hurt one another.

 

[godrulz]

I think I disagree.

Even from the OV perspective an argument can be made that God has more than one type of will.

After all... God wills that we do not hurt one another yet He also wills to give us a will of our own in which we often hurt one another.

I think I need to be more precise. I also talk about a sovereign will, moral will, will of men, permissive will, etc. Different Greek words are used for 'will'.

What I object to is that God has a secret, hidden, mysterious will that is contrary to His revealed will (they are in conflict or man cannot understand His higher ways...evil is not God's will....saying that He wanted or caused evil for a higher purpose contrary to His revealed will makes God schizo and acting contrary to His character).

 

[Vaquero45]

Thanks Knight!:knight:

And where would I find the description of these terms?:idunno:

If you find a "Hilston" post, it will most likley have a link in his signature or at the bottom to an article he wrote on this. That will get you up to speed on what they mean.

 

[GuySmiley]

Thanks Knight!:knight:

And where would I find the description of these terms?:idunno:

Check out one of the links in Jim's signiture, I think one of them leads to his website which goes into great lengths on the topic.

EDIT: Oh, I didn't see V45 already said this.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Check out one of the links in Jim's signiture, I think one of them leads to his website which goes into great lengths on the topic.

EDIT: Oh, I didn't see V45 already said this.

Actually that link is one of the reasons I created this thread.

Jim's article does explain his position some, but still leaves me saying.... hmmmm :think: I just don't get it.

Hopefully this thread will shed new light.

 

[GuySmiley]

Jim's article does explain his position some, but till leaves me saying.... hmmmm :think: I just don't get it.

I read it, and I'm with ya! :thumb:

 

[Hilston]

I have a reply in the works. I haven't forgotten about this thread.

All according to God's decrees, of course.
Jim

 

[billwald]

In other words, Plan A and Plan B.

 

[themuzicman]

I think I disagree.

Even from the OV perspective an argument can be made that God has more than one type of will.

After all... God wills that we do not hurt one another yet He also wills to give us a will of our own in which we often hurt one another.

But those actions aren't HIS will, they're OURS.

And God's purpose in giving us a free will wasn't for the purpose of hurting one another.

Thus, God isn't decreeing the sin of man. Man sins against God's decree.

Muz

 

[godrulz]

God decrees some vs all things. It would be a mistake to extrapolate from some specific cases to a general, exhaustive principle. God does not decree things contrary to His character and Law. Allowing something to happen is not the same thing as causing, desiring, or intending it to happen (cf. our own parenting).

 

[Hilston]

This is a continuation from the Open Theism thread. I wanted to separate it out so we could focus in on it.

I wonder why God would intentionally decree things that go against His will? That seems to be my biggest stumbling block regarding your position.

To avoid confusion, I think your question would be clearer if you asked it this way: "I wonder why God would intentionally decree things that go against His prescriptive will?" I think that's what you were aiming for, but if it isn't, please let me know. Here's how I would answer that question:

Throughout scripture we are shown examples in which God has decreed that which is contrary to His prescriptions for His own good reasons and purposes. For example, God decreed that Joseph's brothers would hate him without justification (Ge 37:4), even though His prescriptive will forbids hatred without cause. God decreed that they conspire to betray him and sell him to the Ishmeelites (Ge 37:27), which is tantamount to kidnapping, even though God forbids kidnapping. God decreed that Joseph would be sold by the Ishmeelites as a chattel slave to Egypt, even though God's prescriptive will forbids chattel slavery. God decreed that Joseph's brothers would deceive Jacob into thinking Joseph was killed and send him into deep mourning (Ge 37:31-35), even though God's prescriptive will forbids lying without justification.

We know this was all meticulously decreed by God because, among myriad other reasons, He says so. Moreover, the reason why He decreed the evil was to bring about good. The scripture reveals that the famine in the Land (Ge 45:6) was authored by God (Ps 105:16). We know that it wasn't really Joseph's brothers who sent him to Egypt, but God Himself, having decreed the evil of Joseph's brothers, contrary to His own prescriptive will: Ge 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Thus, we see God's decretive will (unjust hatred and deceit, jealousy, selfishness, kidnapping, etc.) are contrary to His prescriptive will (prohibitions against unjust hatred and deceit, jealousy, selfishness, kidnapping, etc.). By understanding God's meticulous control and the fact that everything God decrees, good and evil (Job 2:10) are for God's own good purposes, Joseph could duly and confidently say: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Gen 50:20).

Let me try to explain how I view God's will. ... (keep in mind this is just an analogy it will have flaws and break down in parts, so humor me)

Imagine a dirt path leading through a forest. ... The path is like God's decretive will (as you call it). God has set a boundary that keeps our wills limited.

God's decrees constitute the precise details of planned events, actions and outcomes. They are not merely "guides" or "boundaries." When the Scriptures say "As it is written," it refers to exhaustive and meticulous detail, perfectly coordinated, chronologically and precisely, something no mere "guideline" or "boundary" could do.

Our will is free but not unlimited. It's constrained to the path ...

Would you give an example of such a constraint?

i.e., God has set how wide the path is and God knows when the path will turn or when the path will end. We cannot thwart the overall layout of the path.

Sure we can. On your scenario, one could stop the path completely by ending one's own life.

It seems to me that you believe that God's decretive will not only defines the path but also every detail of how we walk down the path, i.e., how we hurt others on the path, how and when we fall, and even how the dust kicks up when we hit the ground etc. etc. etc.

Correct, and all for His own good reasons and purposes.

I have a hard time understanding how God's prescriptive will comes into play in any real way under your view.

What do you mean by "comes into play"? God's law, in every dispensation, comprises His prescriptive will. Paul tells the Romans to pay their taxes (Ro 13:6). This is God prescribed will. There may have been those who were resisting the government (Ro 13:2), and Paul told them that this is tantamount to resisting the ordinance (prescribed will) of God. Their resistance was according to God's decreed will. The command expressed God's prescribed will. God had good reasons for decreeing their resistance, not the least of which is giving Paul a real-life case to address in his epistle, and by which to convey to all God's saints the importance of paying taxes to the government under which one finds oneself.

In Deu 29, Moses informs Israel that God had not given them a heart to perceive, eyes to see, or ears to hear until that very day. All the great and wonderful things God had done for them were not fully perceived because of the blindness that God decreed for them. In that day, Israel stood before God as a nation for the purpose of drafting a covenant between them, as the result of now seeing all these things God had done for them. As it is in the case of human covenants, included in the oath are the attending curses that will come to pass should one of the parties fail to uphold his part of the agreement. In the case of divine covenants, such curses only apply to the human side of the agreement, not the divine side. This speaks to God's immutable essence. He cannot fail to uphold His end of a covenant. That is never in question. Always in question is man's side of the vow. And this Moses addresses in great detail.

He has recounted for Israel all God has done for them. All Israel knows the gospel promise God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerning their promised Land and future glory. But then Moses proceeds to declare that Israel will indeed turn its heart away from God, and horrific curses will indeed befall them. God has decreed it, and it will come to pass. Moses writes:

22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it; 23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath: 24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger? 25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: 26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: 27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book: 28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.​

Moses then shifts his description of the future God has revealed to him to address the question on the mind of every thoughtful Jew within earshot: "But what about the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerning our nation? What about the gospel of our kingdom? Why has God decreed that all this horrific and terrifying disease and destruction will happen to His chosen nation?"

Moses writes: 29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

In other words, God's prescriptions are clear. Obey them. The details of God's decrees are secret and belong to the Lord, comprising the reasons why God would decree such evil and calamity for Israel. Obey God's prescriptions; don't try to figure out His decrees.

Overall, Israel can know that God decrees evil for His good purposes, but the details thereof and the specific reasons for them are secret to God.

Moses then proceeds to describe their great and glorious future that God has decreed for the nation that will inexorably come to pass:

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.​

Moses sets before all Israel their future as a nation (even to those who are not present, Deu 29:14,15) . It's going to happen just as he describes it. God has decreed it for the nation. But now, each individual Jew must consider God's prescriptions [note the shift in pronoun from plural to singular]:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you [all Israel], that I have set before you [all Israel] life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou [individual Jew] and thy seed may live: 20 That thou [individual Jew] mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou [individual Jew] mayest obey his voice, and that thou [individual Jew]mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou [individual Jew] mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.​

Thus we see another example of how God's decretive will (Israel's idolatry, captivity and eventual glory) is contrary to God's prescriptive will (His commands to Israel to turn from idolatry and to keep their covenant). The Bible is chock-full of these.

Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to further explain these important differences.

All according to God's decree (but not necessarily according to God's prescriptions), of course.
Jim

 

[godrulz]

Diagnosis:

Hilston's wrong assumption that God's control is meticulous vs providential/responsive leads to wrong conclusions and other errors.

There are better ways to exegete His proof texts than to presuppose a 'two will' resolution. Just because God uses situations and attempts to redeem them as far as possible, does not mean He desired, caused, intended, willed, planned, etc. them. Judas and Pharaoh were not predestined from all eternity for their roles. As their hearts became hard, God creatively worked with and around this circumstance. If they would have become godly or repented, the Bible and history would be different than it is.

All is not according to God's decree, but God will still triumph in the end despite this. The murder of a Christian is not decreed, desired, intended (Satan vs Jesus comes to kill, destroy vs life), but God will bring justice and the believer will be comforted for eternity.

One of us needs a paradigm shift in how we understand God's character and ways (and it is not Knight and I).

 

[Hilston]

Diagnosis:

Hilston's wrong assumption that God's control is meticulous vs providential/responsive leads to wrong conclusions and other errors.

Godrulz's wrong assumption that God's control is not really controlling anything leads to a demigod theology and anthropology. Of course, he doesn't touch the text. He just points at it and says, "There are better ways to exegete His [sic] proof texts than to presuppose a 'two will' resolution."

Just because God uses situations and attempts to redeem them as far as possible, does not mean He desired, caused, intended, willed, planned, etc. them.

God called for the famine. Even before Joseph's brothers cashed in. God sent Joseph to Egypt, not his brothers. Joe's brothers sold him to the Ishmeelites. God sent Joseph to Egypt. God made Joseph the head of Pharaoh's house. Not Pharaoh. That's what the text says.

... Judas and Pharaoh were not predestined from all eternity for their roles.

Who says they were? I never did. They were decreed from the foundation of the world, not "predestined from all eternity." Please cease and desist from putting words in my mouth.

As their hearts became hard, God creatively worked with and around this circumstance. If they would have become godly or repented, the Bible and history would be different than it is.

I see. So "as it is written" actually means "as it happened to turn out. Whew!"

All is not according to God's decree, but God will still triumph in the end despite this. The murder of a Christian is not decreed, desired, intended (Satan vs Jesus comes to kill, destroy vs life), but God will bring justice and the believer will be comforted for eternity.

Satan and his rebellion were decreed, GR.

One of us needs a paradigm shift in how we understand God's character and ways (and it is not Knight and I).

Open Theists are not qualified to talk about God's character until they are ready to acknowledge the difference between His immutable essence and His mutable actions.

Thanks for your "diagnosis."

AATGD, BNNATGP, OC,
Jim

 

[Nathon Detroit]

To avoid confusion, I think your question would be clearer if you asked it this way: "I wonder why God would intentionally decree things that go against His prescriptive will?" I think that's what you were aiming for, but if it isn't, please let me know. Here's how I would answer that question:

Actually I asked the question exactly the way I intended.

Jim, here is the deal....

You believe that EVERYTHING that happens (without exception), happens according to God's decretive will. If that is true how can ANYTHING happen that isn't part of EVERYTHING? Where is there room for God's prescriptive will? It seems to me that if EVERYTHING happens according to God's decretive will then God's prescriptive will could be nothing more than "show" (just part of God's decretive will).

According to you... God's prescriptive will is that we not hurt each other on the path but when we do hurt each other on the path it's because God willed that we hurt each other on the path (via God's decretive will) . Therefore God's prescriptive will (according to your own view) is utterly meaningless.

You paint a picture of God saying "don't do this". Yet God wills that we do just that! God's own decretive will overrides His perscriptive will in every and all cases.

You state...

What do you mean by "comes into play"? God's law, in every dispensation, comprises His prescriptive will. Paul tells the Romans to pay their taxes (Ro 13:6). This is God prescribed will. There may have been those who were resisting the government (Ro 13:2), and Paul told them that this is tantamount to resisting the ordinance (prescribed will) of God. Their resistance was according to God's decreed will. The command expressed God's prescribed will. God had good reasons for decreeing their resistance, not the least of which is giving Paul a real-life case to address in his epistle, and by which to convey to all God's saints the importance of paying taxes to the government under which one finds oneself.

That is a perfect example of why I feel your theology is illogical.

Why would Paul need to "convey to all God's saints the importance of paying taxes to the government under which one finds oneself." if their paying or not paying taxes has already been decreed in advance?

Next, you state...

Sure we can. On your scenario, one could stop the path completely by ending one's own life.

I can see why you would misunderstand me here on this point. The path isn't our individual life's path but instead the path of history for everyone, that's why I gave examples of other people on the path. Therefore if we killed ourself it wouldn't thwart God's decretive will (the overall path) yet it would thwart God's prescriptive will (His desire that we not hurt ourselves). Yet according to you, if we killed ourself it would be just another detail of God's decretive will.

--

I spent a good deal of time coming up with my "path" analogy I was sort of hoping you would respond to it.

I asked...
Maybe you could use my analogy (about the path of life) and tell me how you think your belief about God's will(s) fit into my analogy.

Two bonus questions (taken from above)

1. Why would Paul need to "convey to all God's saints the importance of paying taxes to the government under which one finds oneself." if their paying or not paying taxes has already been decreed in advance?


2. Does God's decretive will override God's perscriptive will in every and all cases? If not can you give me an example of where God's decretive doesn't override God's perscriptive will? (i.e., if God's perscriptive will is that we love one another, yet I assume you would argue that God's decretive will would have us NOT love one another therefore God's decretive will overrides God's perscriptive will)

Thanks again for your responses. :up: