God made them the vessels of wrath !

MennoSota

New member
The only answer to my questions is; Satan was never CREATED as a vessel of Wrath!!! It is those who think that GOD creates evil and condemns evil not chosen by their free will that supposes the answer to these questions are: Sure HE can do that and all is fine in the world!!!

GOD gave Satan et al LIVES created and predetermined to fulfill their freely chosen decision to be reprobate in HIS sight, lives, not created fates, as (designed to be) vessels of wrath.

I am fascinated by your lack of perception about my meaning and can only believe you are deliberately missing my point.
I do not think God creates evil. I do believe that God allows evil to exist. (How would we know what is good if there were no evil?)
God could have never allowed Satan to fall. God could have never allowed Adam and Eve to fall. But, God did allow it. God chose to allow it. God never tells us why He chose to allow it. God just did and we must accept it was God's perfect and good choice to allow sin to happen.
Romans 9:20 expresses it best.

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
I do not think God creates evil. I do believe that God allows evil to exist.

It is a sophistry to say HE creates us evil in Adam but HE does not create evil or evil people. In this theology there was no evil named me but after my creation there was a new person, me, who was evil...therefore by no choice of my own, HE created me evil BY THE METHOD OF making me human in Adam...just too bogus! If HE did not want to create a new evil person, HE could have created me as a Martian in all the innocence Adam supposedly had. Or even as a new race of human or as individual humans personally INDEPENDENT in our innocence like the angels, ie NO “racial moral solidarity” which means that we would have to make all our own moral choices; no one else can make our moral choices for us and we cannot be held accountable for someone else's evil choices, like the angels! Concept...

Well, to me that sounds like Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent... even if that parent is Adam! WE do not die for, in or because of Adam's sin: Jeremiah 31:30 Instead, each will die for his own iniquity. It is already is scripture - why does orthodoxy demand we believe a theology contrary to this scripture just because we are supposed to believe that we are CREATED, not sown, in sin?

Face it, if you believe that GOD does not create evil then you have to find an alternative to our being created in Adam's sin or sinful in any way or with a sinful propensity of any kind or any of the theo-babble that this blasphemy spouts to justify itself.
 

MennoSota

New member
It is a sophistry to say HE creates us evil in Adam but HE does not create evil or evil people. In this theology there was no evil named me but after my creation there was a new person, me, who was evil...therefore by no choice of my own, HE created me evil BY THE METHOD OF making me human in Adam...just too bogus! If HE did not want to create a new evil person, HE could have created me as a Martian in all the innocence Adam supposedly had. Or even as a new race of human or as individual humans personally INDEPENDENT in our innocence like the angels, ie NO “racial moral solidarity” which means that we would have to make all our own moral choices; no one else can make our moral choices for us and we cannot be held accountable for someone else's evil choices, like the angels! Concept...

Well, to me that sounds like Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent... even if that parent is Adam! WE do not die for, in or because of Adam's sin: Jeremiah 31:30 Instead, each will die for his own iniquity. It is already is scripture - why does orthodoxy demand we believe a theology contrary to this scripture just because we are supposed to believe that we are CREATED, not sown, in sin?

Face it, if you believe that GOD does not create evil then you have to find an alternative to our being created in Adam's sin or sinful in any way or with a sinful propensity of any kind or any of the theo-babble that this blasphemy spouts to justify itself.
Are humans born perfect like Adam and Eve in the garden?
The corruption is hard wired from Adam to all his descendants. God calls it "the curse."
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Are humans born perfect like Adam and Eve in the garden?
Do you keep twisting my words to try to catch me out? Do you not pay attention to what you (supposedly) read?

I believe:
Only sinners are sown into the earth, Matt 13:36-39, Adam and Eve included.*

All conceived or born on earth are sinners already; some not condemned because they are sinful believers and others condemned already because they have never believed. Jn 3:18.

The corruption is hard wired from Adam to all his descendants. God calls it "the curse."
I offer verses as to why GOD cannot create us evil in Adam and you offer me orthodox platitudes, no Biblical support in the least. :noway:

* Every person CREATED in GOD'S image was created perfectly ingenuously innocent with a free will and the perfect ability and opportunity to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally righteous by faith or to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally evil by a faith that the unforgivable sin would bring them the best life possible. OUR CREATION WAS NOT OUR CONCEPTION NOR BIRTH!
 

MennoSota

New member
ttruscott wrote:
* Every person CREATED in GOD'S image was created perfectly ingenuously innocent with a free will and the perfect ability and opportunity to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally righteous by faith or to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally evil by a faith that the unforgivable sin would bring them the best life possible. OUR CREATION WAS NOT OUR CONCEPTION NOR BIRTH!
Please provide scripture for this. I want to see the tortured passages you pretzel in order to make this statement.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Ted said:
* Every person CREATED in GOD'S image was created perfectly ingenuously innocent with a free will and the perfect ability and opportunity to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally righteous by faith or to CHOOSE to become perfectly eternally evil by a faith that the unforgivable sin would bring them the best life possible. OUR CREATION WAS NOT OUR CONCEPTION NOR BIRTH!
Please provide scripture for this. I want to see the tortured passages you pretzel in order to make this statement.

MORE verses supporting GOD is HOLY, that is, HE has no evil in HIM nor can HE bring it forth from HIS holiness:
1 John 2:16 For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world. To create us with a sin nature means that all these things comes for our nature as HE created it. This verse denies that very openly.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. Is 'heart' another name for 'human nature' or 'sinful nature'? Then you know what I think...

Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. The flesh and the Spirit are contrary to each other, they are in conflict! One cannot produce the other as a fulfillment for any purpose whatsoever. How is it reasonable to think GOD creates that which HE is in conflict with...? GOD's Kingdom is not divided by the creation of evil as it would be IF HE created it: Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. in the context that Satan will not cast out demons which must extrapolate to therefore Christ would never be involved with creating evil.

IF it is blasphemous to say Jesus cast out demons by the finger of Satan, how much more to say that HE created Satan's evil and all evil in existence? And this is also in the context of: 23 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. If these things are outside of the Kingdom of God then GOD as the HIGH KING cannot nor would not (if HE could) ever create them or the impulse to do them or a nature that would inevitably lead to them. And does not the creation of evil create dissensions, factions within HIS Kingdom??? Duh, it suddenly creates eternal evil enemies but no dissensions or factions??? <headshake, facepalm>

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. THESE are the things GOD creates - wherein is there any place for sin and evil to be created?

Any verse you can find to argue HE created evil is INTERPRETED WRONGLY for sectarian purposes and such is a blasphemy against HIS Holiness.

We are only guilty of sin we chose - GOD did not make us evil in Adam.
We are conceived and born as sinners,
ergo, we chose to rebel against GOD before our conception, birth.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
MORE verses supporting GOD is HOLY, that is, HE has no evil in HIM nor can HE bring it forth from HIS holiness:

Verses you've already refused to exegete to avoid having the contaminate your philosophy...

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. Surely this means that HE cannot do or create evil in any way by any method any more than a match can be struck and darkness come out and fill a room! If you think this verse means something else I'd love to hear what that is but please, no more theology proving that creating us as men in Adam is NOT creating us to be sinners and evil.

Do we believe Mark 3:23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand." ? Is not the holy side of this syllogism IF GOD drives our Satan's evil, how can HE create the evil HE hates? IF GOD hates wickedness: and has no wickedness in HIM, Psalm 92:15 proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.” and Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You., how can we say that HE created wicked people by having them born as men in Adam without being a house divided? Both things cannot be true at the same time because they are opposites. IF HE cannot dwell with the wicked, how can HE have created them / us, especially HIS Bride, as evil in Adam?

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Christ is good so cannot create evil people by making them human in Adam's sin, especially those HE chose before the foundation of the world to be HIS Bride!!! What foolishness is this?? James 3:11 Can both fresh water and bitter water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. Though this is about words, how much more is it about the creation of people who are more important than words?

Once we decide that the doctrine of inherited sin is blasphemy against HIS loving justice, only then will we ever be open to the truth of how we became sinners ie where our depravity came from.1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. Surely this means that HE cannot do or create evil in any way by any method any more than a match can be struck and darkness come out and fill a room! If you think this verse means something else I'd love to hear what that is but please, no more theology proving that creating us as men in Adam is NOT creating us to be sinners and evil.

Do we believe Mark 3:23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand." ? Is not the holy side of this syllogism IF GOD drives our Satan's evil, how can HE create the evil HE hates? IF GOD hates wickedness: and has no wickedness in HIM, Psalm 92:15 proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.” and Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You., how can we say that HE created wicked people by having them born as men in Adam without being a house divided? Both things cannot be true at the same time because they are opposites. IF HE cannot dwell with the wicked, how can HE have created them / us, especially HIS Bride, as evil in Adam?
 

MennoSota

New member
MORE verses supporting GOD is HOLY, that is, HE has no evil in HIM nor can HE bring it forth from HIS holiness:
1 John 2:16 For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world. To create us with a sin nature means that all these things comes for our nature as HE created it. This verse denies that very openly.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. Is 'heart' another name for 'human nature' or 'sinful nature'? Then you know what I think...

Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. The flesh and the Spirit are contrary to each other, they are in conflict! One cannot produce the other as a fulfillment for any purpose whatsoever. How is it reasonable to think GOD creates that which HE is in conflict with...? GOD's Kingdom is not divided by the creation of evil as it would be IF HE created it: Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. in the context that Satan will not cast out demons which must extrapolate to therefore Christ would never be involved with creating evil.

IF it is blasphemous to say Jesus cast out demons by the finger of Satan, how much more to say that HE created Satan's evil and all evil in existence? And this is also in the context of: 23 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. If these things are outside of the Kingdom of God then GOD as the HIGH KING cannot nor would not (if HE could) ever create them or the impulse to do them or a nature that would inevitably lead to them. And does not the creation of evil create dissensions, factions within HIS Kingdom??? Duh, it suddenly creates eternal evil enemies but no dissensions or factions??? <headshake, facepalm>

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. THESE are the things GOD creates - wherein is there any place for sin and evil to be created?

Any verse you can find to argue HE created evil is INTERPRETED WRONGLY for sectarian purposes and such is a blasphemy against HIS Holiness.

We are only guilty of sin we chose - GOD did not make us evil in Adam.
We are conceived and born as sinners,
ergo, we chose to rebel against GOD before our conception, birth.
No one is stating that God is evil.
What is stated is that sin is passed on...like a virus...via Adam.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
No one is stating that God is evil.
What is stated is that sin is passed on...like a virus...via Adam.

Still trying to play ping pong with a pool cue eh?

IMHCO, this theology does claim GOd is evil:
To say sin is passed on, like a virus from Adam is to say
1. GOD made it that way or it would not be that way;
2. GOD wanted us to be sinners or He wouldn't have made us in Adam but in some other manner;
3. GOD created us as sinners by using Adam to make us sinners;
4. Only an evil GOD can create evil...

The answer is NOT that a living righteous GOD created us evil people in Adam but that a loving righteous GOD created us ingenuously innocent and gave us a choice to become holy or evil by our own free will by faith in HIM or by rejecting HIM as an object of our faith. Period. HIS creatures created evil, your sophistries notwithstanding.

You theology says that GOD created evil people by making them human (mine does not say this) and your blinders that make it impossible for you to even look at such an idea are a mile wide.
 

MennoSota

New member
ttruscott wrote:
You theology says that GOD created evil people by making them human (mine does not say this) and your blinders that make it impossible for you to even look at such an idea are a mile wide.
LOL, no Reformed theology says no such thing. Your projection is silly.
Let me know when you wish to discuss Reformed theology.
 

MennoSota

New member
The problem with assuming that people are basically good is that it completely ignores the fact that ours is a fallen race, under the just condemnation from God, awaiting the sentence of death and eternal punishment. The reality is that God is not going to compare me to someone else, who is a fallen sinner like I am. Instead, God will measure me against the standard of his law, which is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). And when God measures me using the standard of his law, it will soon become clear that like everyone else descended from Adam, I cannot meet God’s standard of perfection. I am a sinner. I am under the sentence of death. How did this happen?

This immediately raises the question of fairness. Is it fair for God to judge me against a standard I cannot possibly meet? The answer would be “no,” if we were to look at this question in a vacuum without any biblical context. The Bible teaches that Adam was not only the first human (from whom all humans are biologically descended), but that Adam was created holy and without sin. Adam was placed in Eden under the covenant of works with its condition, “do this (not eat from the forbidden tree) and live,” or “eat from the tree and die.” Adam chose the latter, bringing down the covenant curse of death upon the entire human race. People often agree with Ben Franklin’s famous adage that the only two things in life which are inevitable are death and taxes, both of which I might add, stem from human sin. Yet, the fact remains, death is not natural to the human race. Death is the consequence of the fall of Adam.

When Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God immediately pronounced the covenant curse upon him. “And to Adam [God] said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Work became toil. Fruitful fields were filled with weeds and thistles. Child-bearing became labor. And even worse, Adam now faced the sentence of death. And so do we.

Because Adam acted for us and in our place (by serving as our representative in Eden), we are as guilty before God for Adam’s act of rebellion as if we had been in Eden, personally rebelling against God as did our first father. The guilt of Adam’s sin was imputed or reckoned to us (Romans 5:12, 18-19). Not only did the fall of Adam render us guilty before God, we have all inherited a sinful nature from Adam, and it is from that sinful nature that our own particular acts of sin spring (Romans 7:5). We sin because we want to sin. In fact, we like to sin. This is a far cry from the notion that we are all basically good people who occasionally sin. Rather we are sinful people, whose sinful propensities are restrained by the grace of a merciful God.

The Bible teaches that we are sinful by nature and by choice, and that we are not now, and never have been, innocent before God (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). As Paul recounts in Ephesians 2:1-3, we are dead in sin and by nature children of wrath. In Ephesians 4:17-19, Paul speaks of the effects of Adam’s fall upon us in the following terms. “You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.” The consequences of Adam’s fall are grave. Our thinking is futile, we are darkened in our understanding, we are alienated from God, and we seek to gratify our sinful nature rather than seek to please God.

And all of this stems from Adam’s act of rebellion in Eden. As the Puritans so aptly put it, “in Adam’s fall, sinned we all.” Because Adam sinned, we are born with a sinful nature, already under the sentence of death, and unable to do anything to save ourselves.

This is the consequence of Adam’s fall.
 

7djengo7

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The Bible teaches that Adam was not only the first human (from whom all humans are biologically descended), but that Adam was created holy and without sin.

During that period, after God had created Adam, and before Adam sinned, while Adam was holy and without sin, what of all the rest of us? Were we not in Adam during that period? And, if we, all of us, were in Adam during that period, then, were we not (just as Adam was) holy and without sin until Adam sinned? Did God--during the period between the creation of Adam and Adam's sinning--hate any of those who were, during that period, in Adam? Did God ever hate any person who was holy and without sin, while that person was holy and without sin?
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
LOL, no Reformed theology says no such thing. Your projection is silly.
Let me know when you wish to discuss Reformed theology.

The theology says it plainly enough...it is the embarrassment of the people who believe it that forces them to deny that it is the plain meaning of the words, the only logical meaning.
 

7djengo7

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The Bible teaches that Adam was not only the first human (from whom all humans are biologically descended), but that Adam was created holy and without sin.

The Bible teaches that we are sinful by nature and by choice, and that we are not now, and never have been, innocent before God (Psalm 51:5; 58:3).

So, Adam was created holy and without sin--innocent; but all the rest of us, even while we were in Adam, while he was holy and without sin, were not innocent before God? How could we have failed to be innocent before God while Adam was innocent before God?

Oh, let's not forget Calvinism's cherished "We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners!" slogan. What about Adam? Did Adam sin because he was a sinner?
 

MennoSota

New member
During that period, after God had created Adam, and before Adam sinned, while Adam was holy and without sin, what of all the rest of us? Were we not in Adam during that period? And, if we, all of us, were in Adam during that period, then, were we not (just as Adam was) holy and without sin until Adam sinned? Did God--during the period between the creation of Adam and Adam's sinning--hate any of those who were, during that period, in Adam? Did God ever hate any person who was holy and without sin, while that person was holy and without sin?
What a tortured thought you have. Are you claiming that we have a period of time where we are "Adam" before the fall? If so, please share scripture that claims we are born like Adam before the fall and then choose later on to sin.
Do you struggle with the covenant God made with man in the garden, which man broke, and therefore resulted in a curse upon all men? It seems that you do.
 

7djengo7

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Because Adam acted for us and in our place (by serving as our representative in Eden), we are as guilty before God for Adam’s act of rebellion as if we had been in Eden, personally rebelling against God as did our first father.

Here, the Calvinism huckster seems to be saying that we did not sin in Eden, when Adam sinned, but that, somehow, when Adam sinned, we became as guilty before God as we would would have become if we had sinned, in Eden, when Adam sinned.

Yet, later on, the Calvinism huckster says:

As the Puritans so aptly put it, “in Adam’s fall, sinned we all.”

Here, the Calvinism huckster seems to be saying that we did, indeed, sin in Eden, when Adam sinned.

So which is it? Did we sin, in Eden, when Adam sinned, or did we not sin, in Eden, when Adam sinned? It cannot be both.

The doctrine that we were made guilty of sinning by having, ourselves, sinned when Adam sinned is NOT the doctrine that we were made guilty of sinning, when Adam sinned, by a gratuitous imputation of sin. These two doctrines are necessarily averse one to another, and yet, the Calvinism huckster quoted above seems to be affirming both of them in the same paper!
 

7djengo7

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Are you claiming that we have a period of time where we are "Adam" before the fall?

I don't understand what (if anything) you are asking, here, inasmuch as I don't understand what (if anything) you are signaling by putting quotes around the name, Adam. If you meant to ask

Are you claiming that we have a period of time where we are [the man] Adam before the fall?

then I must needs answer "No. Don't be silly. A multitude of persons is not one person." But, what were you asking?

Now, I ask you these questions:

Were we in Adam before Adam first sinned?
Were we in Adam while he was still innocent, holy, without sin, or were we not in Adam until after he first sinned?
 

7djengo7

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What a tortured thought you have. Are you claiming that we have a period of time where we are "Adam" before the fall? If so, please share scripture that claims we are born like Adam before the fall and then choose later on to sin.
Do you struggle with the covenant God made with man in the garden, which man broke, and therefore resulted in a curse upon all men? It seems that you do.

When you, yourself, were in the garden of Eden, some 6,000 or so years ago, at the moment of the fall, and you sinned, why did you sin? Did you sin because you were a sinner? Why and when did you, yourself, become a sinner?
 
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