ECT God decides who does or doesn't believe.

[preacherman57]

Now that I have your attention. Too many people believe that man has free will (which is an illusion) and that man's will is stronger than God's will. They won't state it that way. Rather, the statement goes along this line, "God is a gentleman and will never force any person to do anything against their will."
Of course, this is just one of the many fallacies spouted out that contradict Scripture. If that statement is true, then answer Paul's question in Rom 9:19, "For who hath resisted his will?"
The answer is nobody can resist (oppose, withstand) God's will.
Rom 9:16-21
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardenth ( Wait a sec, does that mean God doesn't give mercy to all people?)
Thou will say to me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest(talks back, questions) against God. Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why has thou made me thus( like this)?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
I can promise that this chapter of Romans is never read or taught on in the average church building. Preachers hate the ninth chapter of Romans. If you have never read Rom, chap 9, you should. Very important info is contained in the chapter.
The main tenet of the Evangelical world, the core belief, the Holy Grail is that man's will is the strongest force in the universe and that no member of the Trinity can make a person do something against that person's will. This is so very evident by the following statements proclaimed ad nausum by the Pharisees:
" Give God permission to work through you."
"Allow the Holy Spirit to lead you."
" Let God have his way."
"Let God be your pilot."
" Give Jesus the steering wheel."
"Surrender to Jesus."
"Let God be God."
"God want's to..."
" God desires that..."
All of these ignorant statenents and similar promote the lie that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are all powerless to do anything to a person without permission. Excuse me, can anybody show me even one verse where this concept is expressed. One verse thst shows that a person prevented God from doing what God had purposed?
Evangelicals, while they may not be aware of it, actually believe in humanism. What arrogance! To think that a weak, sinful created creature is stronger than the all-powerful, mighty, terrible God!
The biblical reality is that God is sovereign over everything in the universe He created, including salvation. The strongest force in the universe is God's intrepid will.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in heaven. He hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Psalm 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

My favorite, Dan 4:35 And all of the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing.: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay(hinder, stop, change, prevent) his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Question what God does, as if God is accountable to man)

Isa 46:9-10. Remember the former things of old: for I am God and there is none else; I am God and there is none like me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying My counsel (purpose) shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure(what God decides to do)

Ep 1:11...according to the purpose of him(God) who worketh all things after the counsel (purpose) of his own will.

Now, that is pretty easy to see that God is sovereign and that everything he purposes does come to pass. And nobody or anything can prevent God's will from happening. I nust point out that in none of theses verses is there any hint or mention of how God needs man's " permission" to act as God has decided to act.
As I write these things, i know for a fact that there will be people who will not see the truth presented in the verses. They will not believe or they will reject the truth. People who claim to believe God's word do not believe God's word. They only believe what they think God's word "should" say in their Evangelical view. And why is this the reality? I'm about to show you. Unfortunately for those goats who don't believe, I am again going to use more of God's word.

Deut 29:2-4
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them,
" Ye have seen (with your physical eyes) all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharsoh, all of the Egyptians and unto all of his land. The great temptations(tests) which you saw with your own eyes, you saw the signs and great miracles. YET THE LORD HATH NOT GIVEN YOU AN HEART TO PERCIEVE, AND EYES (spiritual eyes) TO SEE AND EARS (spuritual ears) TO HEAR UNTO THIS DAY.

God has to give a person spiritual eyes and ears in order for that person to comprehend and believe truth. No person has the abilty to "chose" to believe biblical truth. No person, in their natural state, can discern, of his own will, intellect, wisdom, etc. spiritual truth. The truth is there in plain sight, if God enables you to see it. If God doesn't give you the spiritual eyes to see the truth, you can live a thoudand years, have the entire bible memorized, have 30 degrees, study for a thousand years and you will never see the truth.

Jn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: niether can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us ( every time the words, "us" or "we" are used in the N.T., they refer to believers only) by his Spirit...


Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction.

Psalm 78:32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wonderous works.

Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

Psalm 119:73 Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

Pro 20:11 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made both of them.
(Obviously this is not refering to the physically only)

Isa 6:10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but percieve not.

Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes. the prophets, your rulers, the seers hath he covered ( concealed the truth)

Jer 4:10 Then said I. Ah Lord God! Surely thou hast greatly deceived this people...

Jer 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land...but of hearing the words of the Lord.

Mat 13:10-11
...Why speaketh thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mat 13:16-17 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.


Mk 4:11-12 And he said unto them, "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without(goats) all these things are done in parables.
That seeing they may see, and not percieve; and hearing they may hear, but not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven.

Now, consider this. The Evangelicals claim that God and Jesus "want" all people to "get saved" ( There is no concept of people "getting saved" in Scripture) Yet, through his own words, Jesus purposely kept the truth hidden to some! He blatantly states that all people are not to be saved. What is faith? Belief in the truth. In order to be saved, one has to beleve the truth. Yet, Jesus made sure that some people would be kept from the truth. Hmmm. Jesus, by hiding the truth, purposely makes sure that there are those who will not have any chance, ever, of having their sins forgiven. This is the real Jesus of the bible, the Son of God, not the made up sissy Jesus of the Evangelicals.

Mat 11:25-26
At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank thee O Fsther, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise, prudent and hast revealed them unto babes( someone new to the faith)
Even so, Father: for it seemed good in thy sigbt.

Let me get this straight, Jesus gavr thanks that God hid truth? And, to God, it was a good thing to hide truth from peopke? That doesn't sound right, does it? No, that doesn't sound right to Evangelicals and the made-up God and Jesus taught by the Pharisees.

Jn 10: 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not ...

Jn 10: 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice...

Jn 10:26-27

Many teach that one "becomes" a sheep after they "accept Christ" ( A phrase not found in Scripture) One is either born a sheep or a goat. In order to hear Jesus, one must already be a sheep.

Jn 12:37-40

Jn 8:43-44 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father, the devil...

Notice, Jesus said, because you CANNOT hear my word. Cannot, unable to hear, Jesus did not say, bevause you will not, or, because you rejected me.
Wow, Jesus wasn't very nice when he told the Pharisses they were the children of the devil. I guess he really showed them, shared with them, God's love, right? Aren't we supposed to share God's love with all people?

Jn 18:37...Everyone that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Acts 16:14
The Lord opened her heart.

Acts 22:9

Rom 11:7-8

2Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded.

2Cor 4: 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.

This does not say "because they rejected Jesus, that the gospel would now be hid. It is hid from those from the start, the lost will never have a chance to "get saved"

I could show more verses, but there is no need. I have given plenty of evidence of what I titled this post. If God "wants" everybody to get saved, if He prusues people, if He is wooing people, inviting people to "get saved" why wouldn't he give all people the eyes and ears to see, comprehend and believe the truth. No, he purposely gives some the truth and purposely hides the truth from others. It must be his purpose. And please dont try to telk me that big lie that, "God has seen who will believe and gets the truth to those.








Sent from my LG-M327 using Tapatalk

 

[glorydaz]

Now that I have your attention. Too many people believe that man has free will (which is an illusion) and that man's will is stronger than God's will. They won't state it that way. Rather, the statement goes along this line, "God is a gentleman and will never force any person to do anything against their will."
Of course, this is just one of the many fallacies spouted out that contradict Scripture. If that statement is true, then answer Paul's question in Rom 9:19, "For who hath resisted his will?"
The answer is nobody can resist (oppose, withstand) God's will.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Danoh]

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yep!

When you're right; you're right.

:thumb:

And surprised at my response; aren't ya?

:chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[nikolai_42]

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Let me just point out a few things...

Note the text of the verse in Matthew. If anything, it counters the idea that supposedly libertarian free will plays a (determining) role in salvation.

1. Who is Jesus speaking to? O Jerusalem, Jerusalem etc...
2. Who does Jesus want to gather? ...how often would I have gathered thy children etc...
3. Who is doing the resisting? ...and ye would not.

So unless "ye" and "thy children" are the same entity, this is actually militating against an individual's free will being the deciding factor in salvation. Grammatically speaking, Jesus is speaking either to the religious leaders of the day or He is speaking to a spiritual authority associated with Jerusalem (and her longstanding rebellion). Either way, they are (or it is) preventing Jerusalem's children from coming to Him. And even Jesus spoke of doing the Father's will and not His own. So there is nothing saying that He knew who would be drawn by Jesus' ministry. He may not have known who, but He did say that the Father does the drawing.

And on the second verse, I would assume you have heard it before - but I will say so to be complete. Peter says God is being merciful to us-ward. It's a strange construction to the modern english ear, but we do still hear (occasionally) of having a God-ward life (for example). The idea being a specific direction towards a specific object. So the question then becomes "Who is us?". 2 Peter 3:1 refers directly back to the beginning of the epistle which states:

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 3:1

So the mercy is towards the elect - those who will believe - that none of the elect should perish. And if you look at all the instances of "us" in 2 Peter, they all have to do with either believers generally or the apostles specifically. This is a letter written to a specific people, after all. Not (intended) to be read as though Peter is writing to the entire world.

 

[glorydaz]

Let me just point out a few things...

Note the text of the verse in Matthew. If anything, it counters the idea that supposedly libertarian free will plays a (determining) role in salvation.

1. Who is Jesus speaking to? O Jerusalem, Jerusalem etc...
2. Who does Jesus want to gather? ...how often would I have gathered thy children etc...
3. Who is doing the resisting? ...and ye would not.

So unless "ye" and "thy children" are the same entity, this is actually militating against an individual's free will being the deciding factor in salvation. Grammatically speaking, Jesus is speaking either to the religious leaders of the day or He is speaking to a spiritual authority associated with Jerusalem (and her longstanding rebellion). Either way, they are (or it is) preventing Jerusalem's children from coming to Him. And even Jesus spoke of doing the Father's will and not His own. So there is nothing saying that He knew who would be drawn by Jesus' ministry. He may not have known who, but He did say that the Father does the drawing.

Why are you separating the nation from it's people? I don't see that. And also, Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself when He was lifted up (speaking of His crucifixion). So I don't see the difference there, either.

John 12:32-33
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.​

And on the second verse, I would assume you have heard it before - but I will say so to be complete. Peter says God is being merciful to us-ward. It's a strange construction to the modern english ear, but we do still hear (occasionally) of having a God-ward life (for example). The idea being a specific direction towards a specific object. So the question then becomes "Who is us?". 2 Peter 3:1 refers directly back to the beginning of the epistle which states:

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 3:1

So the mercy is towards the elect - those who will believe - that none of the elect should perish. And if you look at all the instances of "us" in 2 Peter, they all have to do with either believers generally or the apostles specifically. This is a letter written to a specific people, after all. Not (intended) to be read as though Peter is writing to the entire world.

Good point, but have God's ways changed? Paul seems to make it clear that God's mercy is available to all men....all nations.

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:​

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:​

Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph. 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,​

 

[nikolai_42]

Why are you separating the nation from it's people? I don't see that.

To that I would say that I'm not doing it, but the text has Jesus Himself doing it. He is speaking to Jerusalem (again, what exactly that entails I don't commit to in this post) and distinguishes between Jerusalem itself (ye) and its children (thy children). It's either a preconception or an extremely non-literal reading that makes this all one entity. I understand the argument that if Jesus is speaking to people as a city that there is some wiggle room for metaphorical understanding, but not so metaphorical as to throw out the distinction between persons, places or other entities that He makes in His statement. If He, instead, had said ye both times, you would have (rightly) militated that this is talking to the same entity both times. So why should the rules of hermeneutic be any less constraining when Jesus uses language that indicates different persons, places or other entities etc...? A preconception is what forces the reading to mean Jesus is speaking to the people of Jerusalem generally (in both contexts).

I would also point out the larger context of that verse. The invective directed specifically to the rulers in that chapter is astounding. Over and over again Jesus pronounces Woe upon the religious leaders of the Jews. No fewer than 8 times, actually - and every verse is laced with Jesus' condemnation of their hypocrisy and unbelief - and their leading astray of the common people. The judgment comes because of the rulers, their unbelief, their hypocrisy and their claim to be descended from their "Fathers" (who Jesus points out killed the prophets). So in verse 32 He says that they are to receive all the just judgment for their identification with those prophets - thus "thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent to thee" is specifically intended to be a judgment upon the Scribes and Pharisees. But there again, I (personally) could even allow it to be a reference to a spiritual authority beyond the visible (sort of like Daniel's reference to the Prince of Persia) and it wouldn't change my view of the reading. The ye and thy children are not referring to the same people.

And also, Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself when He was lifted up (speaking of His crucifixion). So I don't see the difference there, either.

John 12:32-33
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.​

But the verse itself explains the meaning of that term. The internal drawing is done by the Father. Jesus' death is the external sign that signals to the world that salvation is presented to every tribe, tongue and nation in a very visible way. John 6:44 speaks of what brings men to the foot of the cross (seeing, as we do, from 2000 years later).

Good point, but have God's ways changed? Paul seems to make it clear that God's mercy is available to all men....all nations.

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:​

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:​

Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph. 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,​

This one requires a bit more effort to explain my view. Suffice it to say (for the moment) that I believe the preaching of the Word is the efficacious mode of bringing in those who will believe (whether you read that in a classical Reformed way or a more Arminian way). There is something about the Word that transcends the ability of one's own self-driven will (which is bound) that is the quintessential element in salvation. So much so that it really becomes the determinant. From man's perspective, he isn't being forced into believing but can certainly fall into it (so to speak) if God so desires it. Likewise, he can fall into eternal recalcitrance that fixes his fate without the ongoing reference to his own supposed freedom to choose God.

 

[ttruscott]

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in heaven. He hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Psalm 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. is answered by Ezekiel 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. Since HE only does what pleases HIM and since HE takes no pleasure in the death of anyone THEN it is impossible for HIM to be the cause of anyone's death by choosing who will believe and who will not believe and die.

 

[john w]

Now that I have your attention........................................................................ the lost will never have a chance to "get saved"

...... I have given plenty of evidence of what I titled this post. If God "wants" everybody to get saved, if He prusues people, if He is wooing people, inviting people to "get saved" why wouldn't he give all people the eyes and ears to see, comprehend and believe the truth. No, he purposely gives some the truth and purposely hides the truth from others. It must be his purpose. And please dont try to telk me that big lie that, "God has seen who will believe and gets the truth to those.

Yes, you have our attention. Give us evidence, that you are one of "the elect," not one of "the lost (who) will never have a chance to 'get saved'," that you are one of the "roll the dice" "fortunate" ones that God pursued, "wooing" you, "inviting" you to His exclusive country club, to give you the truth. Do be a dear-give us the evidence, the "good news." How do we/you know that you are not one of the lost? Specifics, Clavinite.Unpack it for us.

 

[genuineoriginal]

God decides who does or doesn't believe.

Yes, God examines our hearts to see whether we believe or not.

many people believe that man has free will

It is easy to believe a tautological truth like that. :thumb:

Excuse me, can anybody show me even one verse [...] thst shows that a person prevented God from doing what God had purposed?

Like this passage?

Exodus 32:9-14 9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. 11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. 14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.​

If God "wants" everybody to get saved, if He prusues people, if He is wooing people, inviting people to "get saved" why wouldn't he give all people the eyes and ears to see, comprehend and believe the truth.

God doesn't want us to be soulless puppets, therefore He has determined that we must choose Him before we are accepted.
God has standards, therefore He has determined that He will not choose to give salvation to anyone that does not choose to live according to His standards.

 

[ttruscott]

Now that I have your attention. Too many people believe that man has free will (which is an illusion) and that man's will is stronger than God's will. They won't state it that way. Rather, the statement goes along this line, "God is a gentleman and will never force any person to do anything against their will."

well preacherman57, If we do not have any free will at any time then GOD is responsible for our sin and we are not guilty and it is a lie to say that GOD is righteous and does no evil thing...

You may have learned a bit about HIS sovereignty but you have certainly never basked in HIS love. I will take this horrible essay as a cry for help and do my best...

 

[preacherman57]

well preacherman57, If we do not have any free will at any time then GOD is responsible for our sin and we are not guilty and it is a lie to say that GOD is righteous and does no evil thing...

You may have learned a bit about HIS sovereignty but you have certainly never basked in HIS love. I will take this horrible essay as a cry for help and do my best...

I see the problem. We believe in and serve two dieties. I serve the Almighty God of the bible, and you serve some "hippy type" god. One that is all sappy and emotional
Try as hard as I could, I could not find the word "bask" anywhere in my bible. Nor do I find one instance of somebody "basking" in God's love. Nor do I find any promise of being able to bask in God's love. It is not listed as a gift of the Spirit. In fact, the concept is not in my bible, thus it is not biblical and obiviously is something you have made up. For your Sunday service, do you and others gather together in an open field, sit down cross legged, hold hands and everyone simply "basks" in your god's love? Tell me, is it akin to feeling waves come over your brain? Or is it a physical sensation like feeling rain on your skin? Or could it simply be some ooey-gooey emotional feeling? Is it all three? Do tell.
While seeking a word that I already knew was not in Scripture, it dawned on me that you must honestly believe that you can make up your own god. Am I astray? Hmm, I guess we could compare the two dieites to see if they are the same. Now, you'll have to forgive me for using my bible and using what is in my bible, rather than presenting a made-up god, as you have.
So tell me if your god is like the true God of His word. In the bible I use ( you must use something different) did your god actively and directly kill people in the Old Testament? Is your god a big ol meany?

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth. forty days and forty nights; and every living substance( mankind) that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Hmm, did your god send a flood and kill millions of people, men, women and innocent little babies? And only save eight people? Because of the great violence that filled the land?

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven

Lk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Hmm, did your god ever completely eradicate two cites and destroy all of the inhabitants because of the people's great sins and depravity?

Ex 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all of the firstborn in the land of Egypt...

Ex 14:28 And the waters returned and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

Hmm, maybe they should have "basked" in God's love more? Did your god ever do such a thing? Kill all of the firstborn and then obliterate an entire army?

Was this fair? The Egyptians in the army didn't disobey God. They didn't defy God or stand in direct opposition to God's command. Yet, they were also killed because of Pharaoh.

You see, this aspect of God Evangelicals hate and love to ignore. They don't like this God because He's not fair and He's not nice. People love to seperate the Testaments and act as if the God of the O.T. is not the God of the N.T. or today. They present the O.T. God as stern, harsh and rigid, whereas the N.T. God is kind. super-loving and wouldn't hurt a fly. Yet. does not the bible teach that God has never changed. ( well. that is what my bible teaches) Does your faith teach two gods? Does your faith allow you to describe your god anyway you see fit?

Lev 10:1-2
And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron. took either of them his censer. and put incense thereon. and offered strang fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2. And there went out fire from the LORD. and devoured them, and they died becore the LORD.

Wow. my God killed the two for disobedience. They decided to do an act they were not authorized to do. They acted upon their own imagination. They were of the "Hath God said?" church. They made themselves their own authority. (Gen 11:4) and paid the ultimate price.

This is exactly how the Evangelical church operates. The Pharisees in the pulpits have made themselves their own authority. They add to, take away from and twist scripture in order to create and teach a false god, a false Jesus, a false Holy Spirit and a false bible. They teach things that are not in the bible, and tbey wont teach the things that are in the bible. And all of the goats who sit in the pews are in hearty agreement with anything their favorite Pharisees spout off.

Num 16:29-34
Wow, imagine that, the God I serve and believe in actually opened up the ground and swallowed up the rebels, and after they fell in, closed the ground over them. And, another example of young children paying a price for what their parents did.

Num 16: 45-49
God, not Satan, sent a plague that killed 14,700 people, because they accused Moses of murdering those people.

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me. I KILL and I make alive, I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliever out of my hand.

1Sam 2:6-7
The LORD killeth. and maketh alive: He bringeth down to the grave.
The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich. He bringeth low, and He lifeth up.

Boy, people love Deut 8:18, but I'm positive very, very few talk about God making people poor.

Josh 10:11 ...that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven...they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

1Chr 10: 13-14

2Chr 13:20

Psalm 78:31

Lam 2:21

And lets not forget Acts 5:1-10

So tell me, do we have the same God. Are we using the same bible? Because if we're not. then you are trying to " convert" me.

Ps 5:5-6
Ps 11:5

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[intojoy]

I see the problem. We believe in and serve two dieties. I serve the Almighty God of the bible, and you serve some "hippy type" god. One that is all sappy and emotional
Try as hard as I could, I could not find the word "bask" anywhere in my bible. Nor do I find one instance of somebody "basking" in God's love. Nor do I find any promise of being able to bask in God's love. It is not listed as a gift of the Spirit. In fact, the concept is not in my bible, thus it is not biblical and obiviously is something you have made up. For your Sunday service, do you and others gather together in an open field, sit down cross legged, hold hands and everyone simply "basks" in your god's love? Tell me, is it akin to feeling waves come over your brain? Or is it a physical sensation like feeling rain on your skin? Or could it simply be some ooey-gooey emotional feeling? Is it all three? Do tell.
While seeking a word that I already knew was not in Scripture, it dawned on me that you must honestly believe that you can make up your own god. Am I astray? Hmm, I guess we could compare the two dieites to see if they are the same. Now, you'll have to forgive me for using my bible and using what is in my bible, rather than presenting a made-up god, as you have.
So tell me if your god is like the true God of His word. In the bible I use ( you must use something different) did your god actively and directly kill people in the Old Testament? Is your god a big ol meany?

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth. forty days and forty nights; and every living substance( mankind) that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Hmm, did your god send a flood and kill millions of people, men, women and innocent little babies? And only save eight people? Because of the great violence that filled the land?

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven

Lk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Hmm, did your god ever completely eradicate two cites and destroy all of the inhabitants because of the people's great sins and depravity?

Ex 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all of the firstborn in the land of Egypt...

Ex 14:28 And the waters returned and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

Hmm, maybe they should have "basked" in God's love more? Did your god ever do such a thing? Kill all of the firstborn and then obliterate an entire army?

Was this fair? The Egyptians in the army didn't disobey God. They didn't defy God or stand in direct opposition to God's command. Yet, they were also killed because of Pharaoh.

You see, this aspect of God Evangelicals hate and love to ignore. They don't like this God because He's not fair and He's not nice. People love to seperate the Testaments and act as if the God of the O.T. is not the God of the N.T. or today. They present the O.T. God as stern, harsh and rigid, whereas the N.T. God is kind. super-loving and wouldn't hurt a fly. Yet. does not the bible teach that God has never changed. ( well. that is what my bible teaches) Does your faith teach two gods? Does your faith allow you to describe your god anyway you see fit?

Lev 10:1-2
And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron. took either of them his censer. and put incense thereon. and offered strang fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2. And there went out fire from the LORD. and devoured them, and they died becore the LORD.

Wow. my God killed the two for disobedience. They decided to do an act they were not authorized to do. They acted upon their own imagination. They were of the "Hath God said?" church. They made themselves their own authority. (Gen 11:4) and paid the ultimate price.

This is exactly how the Evangelical church operates. The Pharisees in the pulpits have made themselves their own authority. They add to, take away from and twist scripture in order to create and teach a false god, a false Jesus, a false Holy Spirit and a false bible. They teach things that are not in the bible, and tbey wont teach the things that are in the bible. And all of the goats who sit in the pews are in hearty agreement with anything their favorite Pharisees spout off.

Num 16:29-34
Wow, imagine that, the God I serve and believe in actually opened up the ground and swallowed up the rebels, and after they fell in, closed the ground over them. And, another example of young children paying a price for what their parents did.

Num 16: 45-49
God, not Satan, sent a plague that killed 14,700 people, because they accused Moses of murdering those people.

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me. I KILL and I make alive, I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliever out of my hand.

1Sam 2:6-7
The LORD killeth. and maketh alive: He bringeth down to the grave.
The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich. He bringeth low, and He lifeth up.

Boy, people love Deut 8:18, but I'm positive very, very few talk about God making people poor.

Josh 10:11 ...that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven...they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

1Chr 10: 13-14

2Chr 13:20

Psalm 78:31

Lam 2:21

And lets not forget Acts 5:1-10

So tell me, do we have the same God. Are we using the same bible? Because if we're not. then you are trying to " convert" me.

Ps 5:5-6
Ps 11:5

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You’re right about God doing these things. I do not agree that the teachers of TruScott are presenting a different God. They are simply lukewarm and confused to the point of disobedience. Take women speaking in the church and men wearing hats. They completely ignore the commands of scripture. Basking in love is a cop out for sincere diligent study of the word.


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[intojoy]

The biggest fear of all: that babies die unsaved. In the flood, sodom, Egypt, all had infant deaths. We are born in sin, dead to God, at enmity with the Lord. You or I are simply lucky we were not born Judas Iscariot of the first century. We ought to be extremely grateful that God Saved us. There is no human element to salvation, none.


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[musterion]

Give us evidence, that you are one of "the elect," not one of "the lost (who) will never have a chance to 'get saved',"

Did [MENTION=20796]preacherman57[/MENTION] answer this?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If we were to presume that 'Preacherman57' was correct and we who trust in 'The Gospel of the Grace of God' are wrong, what makes him 'believe' that he's one of the 'Elect?' After all, he could just be deceiving himself into 'believing' he is one of the 'Elect?' What PROOF can he offer us that he is one of the 'so-called, Elect?'

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Now that I have your attention. Too many people believe that man has free will (which is an illusion) and that man's will is stronger than God's will. They won't state it that way. Rather, the statement goes along this line, "God is a gentleman and will never force any person to do anything against their will."

One of your 'problems' is, that the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking to the 'Lost sheep of the House of Israel' throughout the four Gospels. (Matthew through John) Jesus and His Disciples were preaching the Kingdom Gospel to the House of Israel. Later, after Christ's death and resurrection, Paul was chosen by the Lord Jesus Christ to preach, 'The Gospel of the Grace of God' (Paul's Gospel) to the Jew first and they rejected it. Thereafter, Paul went to the Gentiles.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinism misinterprets Scripture to fit their 'Doctrine and belief system.' The Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of ALL. However, not all will receive forgiveness of their sins and the 'guarantee' of eternal life, through faith. That's where 'Free-will' comes into view. God doesn't desire that 'anybody' perish in their sins. He desires ALL to come to a saving knowledge of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Originally posted here (paywalled for Contributing Members only):

Predestination Violates Man’s Free Will - Answered


The anti-Calvinist’s frequently heard claim: Predestination Violates Man’s Free Will

This is perhaps the single most common objection I have encountered when discussing the doctrines of grace. When I first encountered the doctrines of grace espoused by the Reformers who sought to recover the teachings of Scripture that had been obscured by Romanism, I too was once convinced that predestination destroys human freedom and reduces man to a mere puppet.

I wrestled with the concepts for quite some time, and would even consider this one of the greatest stumbling blocks I had to overcome. So I would not expect something different of the reader of my posts and what I have advocated. In a way it does not come as a surprise to me that the reader will question the practicality of predestination as it relates to human events. With that said, however, let me offer some simple comments on the legitimacy of two great biblical truths—predestination and free will. After all, both are clearly taught within Scripture, so we must find a way to reconcile these two friends.

Let me first start out by asking why one would assume that the two ideas cannot co-exist. The anti-Calvinist mentions often that the freedom of man’s will is not compatible with predestination, but unfortunately, they never attempt to definitively prove this from Scripture or reason. Naturally, I could in turn ask the anti-Calvinist how they reached such a conclusion without first establishing a basis for their position. It seems to me that they are simply arguing a priori knowledge—that is, they are arguing that their conclusion is justified independent of experience. Here I must strenuously object and insist that the two ideas are not mutually exclusive but will want to point out that both are complementary when properly understood.

Free Will Discussion

Beyond arguing against presupposing a contradiction I believe the major confusion resides with many because of a flawed assumption of what they think free will means. I have seen great men and women from both sides talk past each other because each were defining the terms differently. I am afraid we will be no different if we do not clearly define what it is we mean when we use the term free will. The anti-Calvinist reader—like countless others—define the term, free will, as the ability to choose from among various alternatives without any prior prejudices, inclinations, or dispositions. In other words, they imply that man must possess neutrality in order to be truly free.

Now on a superficial level this answer does seem to protect God’s character when we talk about sin and fairness. However, I believe that it creates more questions than answers. Consider for a moment one underlying problem that makes this position untenable. If our choices are not based on prior inclinations and come as the result of neutrality, then our choices come for no reason. Our actions would be mere spontaneous deeds conducted apart from desires, which would not carry any moral weight. They would neither be good or bad. The problem, however, is that God evaluates our choices based on our motives. God will not accept the answer that our sinful actions resulted from spontaneity or mere arbitrariness.

Two Examples

Spoiler

One clear biblical example of God’s predestinating power and man’s free will working together is when Judas betrayed his Lord. The apostle Judas acted freely when he delivered his Master to the Roman authorities for thirty pieces of silver. I do not believe anyone would argue that his actions were spontaneous, but rather, were deliberate and self-serving so “that the Scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12). I believe the gospel writer clearly sets forth the reality that God ordained the life, betrayal, death, and resurrection of His Son—but yet it would not have happened without the free will decisions of those involved in the betrayal and execution of Christ Jesus.

A second example can be found in the selling of Joseph into slavery by his siblings. God’s mighty hand was evident even in this wicked act. Just as Joseph told his brothers “you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive” (Gen 50:20). The brothers’ actions were not spontaneous or without prior inclination. Rather, their actions were premeditated, deliberate, and evil, yet God used their wickedness for a greater purpose. God’s sovereignty was upheld throughout the entire situation, as were the free will decisions of Joseph’s brothers. I would submit to the reader that this is just another example that demonstrates how God remains in control over His creation while leaving mankind with the ability to make choices according to the desires of the heart.

Another problem that I see with neutrality is that it does not correspond to reason. That is, if—as the anti-Calvinist often would claim—the will acts apart from any motive, then how can a choice even be made? What would cause someone to choose between the simplest of matters such as going left or right, stopping or starting, eating or starving? What would compel me to choose at all—if not for an inclination of some sort?

To illustrate my point consider the neutral-willed animal. Two baskets are presented before the animal, one full of wheat and the other filled with oats. Now here is the dilemma. The animal’s neutral-will would inevitably leave him paralyzed and unable to choose between the wheat and the oats. Since he has no prior inclination or disposition to eat wheat, to eat oats, to feast or to starve, he will eventually succumb to starvation. The animal is unable to choose at all; because without motive there can be no choice and without a choice to eat there will be no sustenance for his survival.

This, of course, is an unlikely scenario, but I think it clearly demonstrates the inherent problem of a neutral will. In fact, I would argue that is brings out the absurdity above when carried to its logical conclusion. Furthermore, I would insist that not only does it defy common sense, it is unbiblical. But before I give attention to the scriptural view of the will, I think it is important to first define what free will is.

Free Will Defined

Spoiler

Simply put, free will is that by which the mind chooses any thing. That sounds reasonable, does it not? Before one can choose to do anything, he must first have some idea of what he is choosing. Our mind must first accept or reject a notion before we can choose. The mind shapes our inclinations and desires, just as the reader’s mind shaped his or her desire to read this post. To put it another way, free will is the ability to choose for ourselves—according to our strongest desire at the moment. In fact, we must always choose what we most strongly desire in order to choose at all. Every choice we make, therefore, is the result of the greatest inclination at that precise moment. Again, the very fact that anyone is reading this letter is an example that their desire to read this letter was greater than their desire not to read this letter. Their choice was not spontaneous but was in fact a deliberate act following their greatest urge when the opportunity presented itself.

Now some might object and insist that we can be coerced against our wills in some extreme instances. But I think even this is going too far. I offer, for example, the outrageous scenario of a thief who wields a gun and demands your money or your life. Now granted, your options have been severely restricted, but his instrument of persuasion still cannot coerce your will. You still maintain the freedom to deliver your money to him or to stubbornly refuse, risking loss of your life. If you give over your money then your strongest inclination at that moment is to live, but you still retain the freedom to refuse and risk losing your life. This, of course, is an extreme example but it illustrates the point that we always make a choice according the strongest inclination at the moment—even in unlikely cases. Now compare this to our daily struggles against sin. The same principle applies. We as Christians have a love for God but yet when we commit sin, it is because the desire to please ourselves is greater than our love and obedience to God at that moment. How can it be otherwise? If it were so, then we would be able to claim we were forced to sin. “The Devil made me do it!” Naturally, we know this is not the case.

Every decision you and I make is made for a reason without coercion from anyone else or from God. Not even almighty God, once he has given me this faculty of choice, can make me, coerce me, force me to choose. If God forced the will it would no longer be a will. Just as if God squared the circle it would no longer be a circle.

We all choose according to the desires of our heart all the time. This is what makes us free moral agents, and it is this freedom that prevents us from being mere automatons. Let me just pause here and just state that even being an automaton or robot would in no way diminish who God is or His love for us. Just suppose for a moment that we were high functioning robots. Would that change anything? Would that imply that God’s love is not sincere? Does God need our decisions to validate His love? Absolutely not—He is unchanging and He is absolute. But here I digress.

The Will and Motives in Fallen Mankind

Now getting back to the question at hand: If we choose according to our strongest desires then what exactly are those propensities? Does man in his natural state have any inclination towards God? I would say to the reader that the apostle Paul does not seem to think so. Recall what he wrote to the Christians at Rome:

There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one” (Rom 3:10–12).​

The sobering reality of this passage cannot be ignored. Paul quoted from the Psalms to demonstrate that mankind is radically depraved apart from God’s grace and mercy. We see in other biblical passages that because of this anthropological reality, one cannot come to God (John 6:44) because he does not have the desire to do so. Again, I cannot begin to stress how Scripture pictures humanity. That is, we will not seek after God because we have no desire to do so. God is not in our thoughts (Psalm 10:4), hence, we do not have the moral ability to choose the Lord apart from His calling.

I am often asked how it is that man found himself turned upside down. How exactly did we get into the dire mess in which we currently find ourselves? The answer is this: The fall of our first parents brought upon all of mankind sin and misery, including death. “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Rom 5:12). This is what Reformed thinkers mean when they say man is in a desperate condition. Paul also tells us that we are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1). Now, if the reader asks if there is hope—apart of God—the answer in an emphatic, no. If God does not grant the desire for repentance then no one will ever choose righteousness because natural man does not have a desire for God. Man will always freely reject Christ, because the carnal mind is at enmity with God (Romans 8:7).

No Contradictions Implied

Spoiler

At this point some might be confused with my language which appears contradictory. I argue that man has free will, but then I go on to conclude that man cannot choose God. Both statements are in fact true and to understand better this problem I point out that that man has a free will—but lacks liberty. That is to say, fallen man has not lost his ability to make choices. Rather, it just means that when given the opportunity to make those choices fallen man will choose according to the desire of his heart.

This, of course, is the problem at hand. As I have addressed above, the problem is that the desire—the agent that influences the choices—is corrupted. Fallen man is wholly inclined to evil and is in bondage to sin and therefore has no inclination or desire for righteousness. This ability to choose evil freely but inability to choose what is morally right is what is meant when we say fallen man has free will but not liberty. As you can see, we Calvinists do not deny that man has free will. We just want to qualify the term so as to ensure we use it in a biblical context.

One passage of particular importance that confirms the above is found in the statement of Jesus. In the sixth chapter of John the author writes, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44). The point Jesus was making was that the necessary condition under which one is eventually able to come to Christ is by the drawing—the irresistible grace of God. In other words, one cannot come to Jesus Christ without first being compelled to do so by the working of God through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Let me conclude by reiterating that the biblical concept of free will is that man retains the freedom to choose what he desires—but that his desires are wicked, self-serving and if left in an unregenerate state he will never choose Christ. The sinner cannot choose Christ, because there is no desire in his heart for God. The fall of Adam left mankind in this desperate state, and it is only through the effectual grace of our Lord, working in the hearts of men, that the unregenerate can come to a saving faith. Once God works His grace in the hearts of His chosen, their desire is changed and then they freely choose God as their personal savior. When we accepted Jesus as our Lord we only did so because the Lord first took away our stony heart and gave us a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26).

AMR

 

[musterion]

I'm getting the feeling Preacherman is just here to stir the pot.

 

[preacherman57]

You’re right about God doing these things. I do not agree that the teachers of TruScott are presenting a different God. They are simply lukewarm and confused to the point of disobedience. Take women speaking in the church and men wearing hats. They completely ignore the commands of scripture. Basking in love is a cop out for sincere diligent study of the word.


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Hello intojoy,
Thank you for your comment. When I show the verses that I do, my main goal is that people would actually pay attention to the fact that the verses, which are in scripture ( which they say they believe in) are verses they are not aware of, and should create a desire to look further into the subject. And as a result, should make them aware that their preacher is lying to them about what scripture actually teaches. At that point, they should show the verses to their preacher and let that preacher deal with it.
It is amazing that while people who do not have a certain profession, such as brain surgeon, astronaut, pro athlete, astro physicist, etc., will not claim to have expertise in those areas or work in those fields. But will all consider themselves to be BIBLE EXPERTS! People who do not study, do not know how to study or have even attempted to study. Most of these pew warmrrs only source of knowledge is what their preacher tells them, yet when they read what I post, they immediately rule me in error and procede to correct me, mock me, deny the verses or assume that I am trying to make something up. None of that bothers me. I'm not trying to prove a point or trying to convince anybody to believe me. I ask for people to believe the bible.
The saddest, lamest part is that none of them will even bother to address the verses I show. Most, I am positive, do not even bother to read the verses first, rather start to form their response as soon as they read the title.
They don't understand that they are not disagreeing with me, they are denying God's word. I have stated very clearly in my posts that if you want to discuss with me my position,( which only reflects the bible's teaching) then you need to address the verses I show. Not one person has done that, and I know why! Because I tell the truth and the verses don't lie. Because they are living proof that God has blinded some to the truth, and they prove it.

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