God’s Omniscience and Human Free Will

Ktoyou

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If God foreknows all future things, then everything has to happen in the way that it is foreknown, then those involved have to participate in the way in which they are foreknown to take part. And if those involved have to participate as foreknown, then they are not free to make choices, thus not accountable for their choices.

God’s perfect foreknowledge seems logically to negate true human freedom. The Reformers recognized this by the following quotation from Luther: “For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it, then on the testimony of reason itself there cannot be any free choice in man or angel or any creature” [Martin Luther, On the Bondage of the Will, Conclusion].
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
If God foreknows all future things, then everything has to happen in the way that it is foreknown, then those involved have to participate in the way in which they are foreknown to take part. And if those involved have to participate as foreknown, then they are not free to make choices, thus not accountable for their choices.

God’s perfect foreknowledge seems logically to negate true human freedom. The Reformers recognized this by the following quotation from Luther: “For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it, then on the testimony of reason itself there cannot be any free choice in man or angel or any creature” [Martin Luther, On the Bondage of the Will, Conclusion].

Yes, and some verses say "none seek after God" so a doctrine is formed. Other doctrines get formed by another verse....put them all together and you have man's ideas of what God is.

Isaiah 55:6-8
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.​
 

lukecash12

New member
If God foreknows all future things, then everything has to happen in the way that it is foreknown, then those involved have to participate in the way in which they are foreknown to take part. And if those involved have to participate as foreknown, then they are not free to make choices, thus not accountable for their choices.

God’s perfect foreknowledge seems logically to negate true human freedom. The Reformers recognized this by the following quotation from Luther: “For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it, then on the testimony of reason itself there cannot be any free choice in man or angel or any creature” [Martin Luther, On the Bondage of the Will, Conclusion].

This doesn't present a problem depending on your understanding of God's atemporality. If God can observe all of time at once, Himself existing outside of and inside of it (immanence and transcendence), He is entirely capable of being sovereign in every sense at the same time that He chooses to allow free will.

God knows what your free response will be not because He is driving exactly what the response will be, but because He has seen what your response will be before you yourself know it. How can He know something that hasn't yet happened without guaranteeing a certain response? He knows because our understanding of events as sequential is no barrier to Him. To Him it "has happened".
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
If God foreknows all future things, then everything has to happen in the way that it is foreknown, then those involved have to participate in the way in which they are foreknown to take part. And if those involved have to participate as foreknown, then they are not free to make choices, thus not accountable for their choices.

God’s perfect foreknowledge seems logically to negate true human freedom. The Reformers recognized this by the following quotation from Luther: “For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it, then on the testimony of reason itself there cannot be any free choice in man or angel or any creature” [Martin Luther, On the Bondage of the Will, Conclusion].

Foreknowledge is not fate nor is it preprogramming nor is it predestination as used in the English language.

Foreknowledge is simply that. Knowledge of future actions, events, decisions, etc.

Foreknowledge given by God to wise people will enable the wise person to make wise decisions regarding that information.

Take Joseph and the butler and baker. Each was given the outcome, but did they use that knowledge?

But we see Joseph and Pharaoh. Pharaoh recognized Joseph's excellent spirit, and Pharaoh wisely chose Joseph's wise counsel regarding the upcoming plenty and then lack.

God has given us foreknowledge of future events in scripture, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, for instance. What are you doing with that information? It your choice what you do with that information
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
If God foreknows all future things, then everything has to happen in the way that it is foreknown, then those involved have to participate in the way in which they are foreknown to take part. And if those involved have to participate as foreknown, then they are not free to make choices, thus not accountable for their choices.

God’s perfect foreknowledge seems logically to negate true human freedom.
...

Your logic is impeccable if it is based on the pagan Greek definition of omniscience brought into the Church by Augustine: GOD knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future.

That this is a failure is proven by the fact that it means GOD knew who would end in hell but created them anyway, a blasphemy against HIS loving holiness. It is sad to think that there are actually sincere people who have been sucked into believing this blasphemy and accepting it.

The Bible definition, NOT in the adoration of the early church for Greek wisdom, is:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
This says HIS omniscience refers to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe HIS creative decrees.

Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for our selves.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
This doesn't present a problem depending on your understanding of God's atemporality. If God can observe all of time at once, Himself existing outside of and inside of it (immanence and transcendence), He is entirely capable of being sovereign in every sense at the same time that He chooses to allow free will.

...

Time Lord theology is a waste of my time - a blatant exercise in double think disguised as theology.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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If God foreknows all future things, then everything has to happen in the way that it is foreknown, then those involved have to participate in the way in which they are foreknown to take part. And if those involved have to participate as foreknown, then they are not free to make choices, thus not accountable for their choices.

God's foreknowledge should not be confused with foreordination.

Necessity of a hypothetical inference...
If God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter cannot refrain from sinning. (Incorrect)

The interpretation above wrongly interprets God's foreknowledge as impinging upon Peter's moral free agency. The proper understanding is:

The necessity of the consequent of the hypothetical...
Necessarily, if God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter does not refrain from sinning. (Correct)

In other words, the actions of moral free agents do not take place because they are foreseen, the actions are foreseen because the actions are certain to take place.

God's perfect foreknowledge seems logically to negate true human freedom. The Reformers recognized this by the following quotation from Luther: "For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it, then on the testimony of reason itself there cannot be any free choice in man or angel or any creature" [Martin Luther, On the Bondage of the Will, Conclusion].

In BOTW, Luther takes care to deny the notion of "free" will, and hence "free" choices in any libertarian notion. This is not denial of "true human freedom", rather a confirmation of exactly what "true human freedom means" in light of Scripture and not in light of what man would claim, seeking to be wholly autonomous from His Maker.

For those who have yet to actually read the work, the major propositions in Luther's BOTW are as follows:

1 A fallen sinner is totally unable to cooperate with divine grace.

2 Salvation is exclusively the result of divine monergism.

3 God foreknows what he does and does what he foreknows.

4 To say that a fallen sinner has the power to cooperate with divine grace is a denial of the necessity of Christ’s work.

5 The human will is in bondage to sin because of our union with Adam in his fall.

6 Everything happens according to the divine foreknowledge and will and therefore whatever occurs is, in this sense, ‘necessary’ but not ‘compulsory’.

7 The regenerate and unregenerate act according to their respective wills.

8 Necessity does not destroy moral responsibility.

9 God’s will is immutable.

10 Human free will is a denial of divine freedom.

11 ‘Free will’ an ‘empty term’ which should be discarded.

12 Predestination is the sine qua non of assurance.

13 God has predestined some to eternal life and others to eternal damnation.

14 Predestination is fundamentally paradoxical.

15 Ought does not imply can (Nominalism over realism).

16 ‘God preached’ must be distinguished from ‘God hidden’.

17 Sola gratia, Sola fide denies free will.

18 Human inability disproves free will.

Hence, the quote from Luther, taken in the full context of what he discusses in BOTW about "free will", make perfect sense.

AMR
 
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intojoy

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God knows all things simultaneously at the same time. He is God.
Man's ability to choose is due to God's permissive will. Because God can and does place self imposed limitations on His divine sovereignty we choose and make mistake after mistake in this life.

However, our choices are always according to the sin nature and always rejects God until salvation occurs and the Holy Spirit enables us to follow Christ.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Foreknowledge is not fate nor is it preprogramming nor is it predestination as used in the English language.

No, but definite foreknowledge quires one of those things happen

Foreknowledge is simply that. Knowledge of future actions, events, decisions, etc.

Foreknowledge given by God to wise people will enable the wise person to make wise decisions regarding that information.

Take Joseph and the butler and baker. Each was given the outcome, but did they use that knowledge?

But we see Joseph and Pharaoh. Pharaoh recognized Joseph's excellent spirit, and Pharaoh wisely chose Joseph's wise counsel regarding the upcoming plenty and then lack.

God has given us foreknowledge of future events in scripture, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, for instance. What are you doing with that information? It your choice what you do with that information

You seem to be claiming that God can't bring about His prophecies without determining everything beforehand. That's a denial of God's omniscience and wisdom.

Here's your proof of incompatibility:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/#1
 

Ktoyou

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Hall of Fame
I noticed not much response from OV theologians here? Where did they go?

Knight once said something similar to. "If you saw a movie of the future and in the movie you saw your grandson order a drink, he picked strawberry, not grape, then having seen it did he have a choice to pick strawberry, or did your ability to foresee determine it?"

The thread was too hard for me to find.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
If God foreknows all future things, then everything has to happen in the way that it is foreknown, then those involved have to participate in the way in which they are foreknown to take part. And if those involved have to participate as foreknown, then they are not free to make choices, thus not accountable for their choices.

God’s perfect foreknowledge seems logically to negate true human freedom. The Reformers recognized this by the following quotation from Luther: “For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it, then on the testimony of reason itself there cannot be any free choice in man or angel or any creature” [Martin Luther, On the Bondage of the Will, Conclusion].
No. Free will is evident. If it wasn't then we wouldn't sin. God can know what will happen and we can still have free will. God wrote the book and knows every part including the end. But he gave us an alternative in our free will. If we could actually abide by God's will then we would be good to go. According to scripture that won't happen. But given free will, it could. If God wanted a bunch of plants then he would have made more plants instead of humans. If he wanted robots then he would have created man with freedom to do right or wrong, and a knack for screwing themselves over while acting like this material world is all there is.
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Where are those who disagree with you?

I see, you identify as a Pinko Commie, no way I would consider you.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
If God foreknows all future things, then everything has to happen in the way that it is foreknown, then those involved have to participate in the way in which they are foreknown to take part. And if those involved have to participate as foreknown, then they are not free to make choices, thus not accountable for their choices.

God’s perfect foreknowledge seems logically to negate true human freedom. The Reformers recognized this by the following quotation from Luther: “For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it, then on the testimony of reason itself there cannot be any free choice in man or angel or any creature” [Martin Luther, On the Bondage of the Will, Conclusion].

Something I've always been curious about: if God is omniscient and knows the future then why was the flood necessary? Shouldn't he have seen man's depravity coming and done something before it got so bad that he had to wipe everyone out? The same goes for Adam and Eve. He should have known that they were going to eat from the tree right?
 

patrick jane

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Something I've always been curious about: if God is omniscient and knows the future then why was the flood necessary? Shouldn't he have seen man's depravity coming and done something before it got so bad that he had to wipe everyone out? The same goes for Adam and Eve. He should have known that they were going to eat from the tree right?

i'm sure somebody here has better answers than me. i chalk it it up to faith at the end of the day. i have had detailed thought about those questions and believe that God hoped we would obey his one simple commandment (garden), then the 10, but really FAITH is the only thing required -
 

Greg Jennings

New member
i'm sure somebody here has better answers than me. i chalk it it up to faith at the end of the day. i have had detailed thought about those questions and believe that God hoped we would obey his one simple commandment (garden), then the 10, but really FAITH is the only thing required -

Alright. To be clear I'm not trying to stir things up. Not that you came off as offended because you didn't, but others might. Just asking a question
 

patrick jane

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This doesn't present a problem depending on your understanding of God's atemporality. If God can observe all of time at once, Himself existing outside of and inside of it (immanence and transcendence), He is entirely capable of being sovereign in every sense at the same time that He chooses to allow free will.

God knows what your free response will be not because He is driving exactly what the response will be, but because He has seen what your response will be before you yourself know it. How can He know something that hasn't yet happened without guaranteeing a certain response? He knows because our understanding of events as sequential is no barrier to Him. To Him it "has happened".

qui ex Patre Filioque procedit.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Something I've always been curious about: if God is omniscient and knows the future then why was the flood necessary? Shouldn't he have seen man's depravity coming and done something before it got so bad that he had to wipe everyone out? The same goes for Adam and Eve. He should have known that they were going to eat from the tree right?
It all goes back to free will. Free will of man and Angel. That is the only the mg that isn't preordained or predestined. It allows for great potential for good under God, and horrible potential for evil through greed.
 

lukecash12

New member
Time Lord theology is a waste of my time - a blatant exercise in double think disguised as theology.

God's timelessness is Orthodox theology, so I really don't see this disguise you're talking about. God is not created, hence He isn't constrained by anything the created order is constrained by.
 
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