General Sports Thread

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I will concede that Peyton Manning "might" be a better QB than Tom Brady during the REGULAR season.
No, he's just a better quarterback. That's why when 15 HOF quarterbacks lent their opinion 13 chose Peyton, with Joe Montana splitting. And that was in 2009, when Brady had all of his rings.


Here's a sampling:

“He takes the talent around him and raises their level,” Moon said. “What he demands of himself, he demands of others. It’s scary what he would be like if HE had a Randy Moss on his team.”

Troy Aikman suggested that Manning has had a more challenging career path because he’s had to play for three coaches while Brady has only had one.

However, Peyton Manning fails miserably when you compare the two in the post season.
I've agreed he played on generally inferior teams and never had the coaching, let alone the consistency in that department, that Tom has benefited from. I'm a huge Belichick fan.

Peyton Manning has a 6-6 record in the postseason when his team gives up 21 or less points. Let's take a look at some of the other great QB's records from the postseason when their teams give 21 or less points:


Ben Roethlisberger 6-0
That alone tells you how valuable the stat is.

Peyton Manning is 6-6. That's embarrassing. You can't blame the defense.
I've already broken down the two genuinely bad playoff games he's been involved in. And I've noted two different three pick playoff games that Tom has had, one of which his team won for him and the other of which ended his run in his own back yard.

Of those 13 Bradshaw and Elway chose Brady. It's noteworthy that Bradshaw's numbers are horrible and he'd better vest in wins. Elway also said it's about rings. Well, most of their peers (and better QBs) differed, but Peyton has a good chance of diminishing that argument this year.
 
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tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
That alone tells you how valuable the stat is.

That's my point.

Look how successful all those QB's were in the postseason when their teams gave up 21 or less, and look how mediocre Peyton Manning's record is.

That's a staggering indictment of Peyton Manning.

The only Super Bowl Manning won was not because of him. Peyton had three touchdown passes and seven interceptions in the 2006 postseason, and the team somehow found a way to win the Super Bowl.

2003 AFC Championship game with a game time temperature of 32 degrees in Massachusetts.......Peyton threw four interceptions and one touchdown.

In 2005 the 14-2 Colts had the second rated defense in the league and were the #1 seed. The Colts only gave up 21 points to the Steelers, but they still lost because Peyton Manning couldn't score more than 21 points against the 6th seed at home on turf in a dome.

We all know about the pick-six in the Super Bowl against the Saints, and the bad interception last year against the Ravens in overtime.

I've agreed he played on generally inferior teams

Puh-lease...

Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Bob Sanders, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis.

Second ranked defense in the league in 2005

How many Pro-Bowlers does Peyton Manning have to have on his team for you to consider it a good team?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I forgot the 2010 playoff game between the Colts and the Jets.

The Colts defense only gave up 17 points to the Jets, but all Peyton Manning and the Colts could do on offense was muster up 16 points in the dome on the turf.

Manning threw for 225 yards with 1 TD and 0 INT
 

The Berean

Well-known member
No, he's just a better quarterback. That's why when 15 HOF quarterbacks lent their opinion 13 chose Peyton, with Joe Montana splitting. And that was in 2009, when Brady had all of his rings.


Here's a sampling:

“He takes the talent around him and raises their level,” Moon said. “What he demands of himself, he demands of others. It’s scary what he would be like if HE had a Randy Moss on his team.”

I don't understand Moon's logic here. Didn't Manning have some guy named Marvin Harrison, one the greatest WR's in NFL history, to throw to? Harrison is 5th all-time in receiving TD's, 7th all-time in receiving yards, 7th all-time in receiving yards/game, and 3rd all-time in receptions. Manning had a dominant receiver, like Randy Ross, to throw to.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I don't understand Moon's logic here. Didn't Manning have some guy named Marvin Harrison, one the greatest WR's in NFL history, to throw to? Harrison is 5th all-time in receiving TD's, 7th all-time in receiving yards, 7th all-time in receiving yards/game, and 3rd all-time in receptions. Manning had a dominant receiver, like Randy Ross, to throw to.

Not to mention that from 2001 - 2008 Peyton also had Reggie Wayne lining up opposite of Marvin Harrison.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I don't understand Moon's logic here. Didn't Manning have some guy named Marvin Harrison, one the greatest WR's in NFL history, to throw to? Harrison is 5th all-time in receiving TD's, 7th all-time in receiving yards, 7th all-time in receiving yards/game, and 3rd all-time in receptions. Manning had a dominant receiver, like Randy Ross, to throw to.
Or, Manning took a really good WR and gave him HOF numbers. Hard to say since we don't see Harrison outside of that.

Well, we mostly don't. If you look at Harrison's numbers before Manning and in that first year with him they're good, but not special. His run to the HOF begins with Peyton's arm. Moss was a freak with much less accurate and not so great signal callers.

I think Moon saw that too.


Maybe the counselor is confusing Peyton with Archie? :plain:
You mean Warren Moon. You're really arguing with him as much as me, if you're arguing.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Moss was a freak with much less accurate and not so great signal callers.

Tom Brady only had Randy Moss for basically two years (2007 & 2009).

Brady didn't play in 2008, and Moss was let go after 4 games and 9 receptions in 2010.

So, it isn't like Randy Moss made Brady a great QB.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
Or, Manning took a really good WR and gave him HOF numbers. Hard to say since we don't see Harrison outside of that.

Well, we mostly don't. If you look at Harrison's numbers before Manning and in that first year with him they're good, but not special. His run to the HOF begins with Peyton's arm. Moss was a freak with much less accurate and not so great signal callers.
Well we can say the same thing about Jerry Rice as well. In Rice's rookie season he had a solid season but nothing earth shattering (49 Rec, 927 yards, 3 TD). Rice had Joe Montana throwing to him and the 49ers were the defending Super Bowl champions. Just on stats Harrison's rookie season was about the same as Rice's rookie season. Sometimes players need a year or so to fully adapt to the NFL. Harrison had Jim Harbaugh as his QB in his first two seasons. I guess it's the chicken or the egg question, does the QB make the WR, vice versa, or both?
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Well we can say the same thing about Jerry Rice as well. In Rice's rookie season he had a solid season but nothing earth shattering (49 Rec, 927 yards, 3 TD). Rice had Joe Montana throwing to him and the 49ers were the defending Super Bowl champions.
I think Montana had a good bit to do with it, though Rice was great with the next guy under center as well. Harrison was so-so for three years before Manning utilized him and the numbers leaped off the page.

I think he was quick and, most importantly, became extraordinarily adept at precise route running. It's not to be sneezed at, but it's not the size, speed, hands and ability to go up and get it combination that Moss had, which is why he's number two on most lists, at least for now.

Just on stats Harrison's rookie season was about the same as Rice's rookie season.
Now move that examination to the next two.

Sometimes players need a year or so to fully adapt to the NFL.
Three? And not typically with great WRs.

Harrison had Jim Harbaugh as his QB in his first two seasons. I guess it's the chicken or the egg question, does the QB make the WR, vice versa, or both?
I think a great QB needs at least good WRs or hands TEs and RBs like Craig or Thomas or Bush, which is part of Brady's problem now. He's minus his slot and the two tight end tandem and is left with serviceable but so-so WRs.

But a great WR can make a so-so QB look good. Moss did it more than once. Rice didn't have to.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Moss did it more than once.

Even though I was rooting for the Ravens in last year's Super Bowl, I kind of wanted to see Randy Moss get a ring.

I think he was open in the end zone on that last drive, but they didn't throw it to him. Berean?
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Both.

Swann and Stallworth made Bradshaw look great.

Brady made Deion Branch and Troy Brown look great.
I think Deion was a really, really good WR and Brady used that sort to set up close wins on generally solid teams with great coaching and his uncanny ability. Moss was his first great WR and he did amazing things with him on board. But in general I agree that you don't mix great and bad. Great still needs good, one way or another.

I wanted Moss to get a ring. I still think he could have contributed this year to a team with the need.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Eli Manning already has 33,000+ passing yards and 220 TDs.

So what. He is Rafael Palmerio to me. Or Elway. It should not be career totals, it needs to be averages against your peers to take away different numbers during different eras.

Then there is the sniffer test. He just isn't that good. If you have one game who starts for you? Among the actives, or all time? He isn't even top 30 all time. Except to homers.

With 2 rings and the numbers he'll rack up I don't see how he won't be. Are there any QBs with 2 rings that are NOT in the HOF?

Kind of what I am getting at. He has one more than Trent Dilfer.

The only retired QB with at least two Super Bowl rings and not in the Hall of Fame is Jim Plunkett. All the others are in the Hall of Fame.

And he was brilliant in his two wins. Manning throwing a jump ball is not a great play on his part. Same with Terry Bradshaw.

Troy Aikman suggested that Manning has had a more challenging career path because he’s had to play for three coaches while Brady has only had one.

And a bad owner.

The only thing Eli Manning has led the league in is interceptions. In fact, looking up his numbers his interception rate is even higher than Elway's rate, and he threw 220 picks.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm

I know he had a couple of big years. Most QB's do.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Tony Gwynn was the greatest fat punch and judy hitter ever. I hated to strike out when I played, Gwynn was my hero because he rarely did.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
Tony Gwynn was the greatest fat punch and judy hitter ever. I hated to strike out when I played, Gwynn was my hero because he rarely did.

I remember when Tony first came up to the majors. He could really run then and had a great arm in right field. He played college basketball.

I really worry for Tony and his health. He is obese now. He's a candidate for all sorts of health problems as he gets older. He's already had a bout with cancer and his weight peaked at 330 lbs. Get well soon Tony!

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The Berean

Well-known member
Tony Gwynn was the greatest fat punch and judy hitter ever. I hated to strike out when I played, Gwynn was my hero because he rarely did.

One of the greatest fattie hitters of all time has to be Hack Wilson. He was 5'5", 200 lbs, and wore 5-1/2 size shoes! Bur for five seasons he was one the game's greatest players, hit 56 home runs with 191 RBI in 1930.

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