Free Will

[beloved57]

I am re-posting the scriptures cited by GT adding some comments of my own.

Ezekiel 18:23
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."


Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

1. The Lord says He does not delight in the death of the wicked but, if he created certain people specifically to be "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" then why would He not be overjoyed? When the wicked die and enter hell they will have finally realized the very purpose for which they have been created. The fact that God is not happy about the outcome shows that it was not what He wanted for them.

2. We do not need to speculate about what God really wants for the wicked for He says so Himself. Instead of dying (and entering Eternity in a state of wickedness) God would rather that they turn from their evil ways and turn to Him.

3. The prophet, speaking for God, issues this agonized plea "Why then will you die, O house of Israel" Why indeed? There is no reason to go on in their wickedness and die when there was a way of escape. However, there would be a very good reason to continue the way they were going If they had no other choice. That reason would be God Himself who had predetermined both that they should be wicked and that they should inevitably be recipients of divine anger. If that is true, then why does God need to ask? Why act like they had a choice when they did not? Is this just theater, a morality play?

4. Reading these scriptures without any presuppositions how could anyone conclude that it was really God Himself who was guiding them irresistibly them towards destruction...while simultaneously pleading with them to repent? Would Israel have understood the prophecy this way? There is no evidence for this view in the text. Taken as it stands these verses say that God really wanted Israel to repent but that they refused His call and His warning.

5. It is evident then that God's call is not irresistible and that people whom God genuinely wants to turn around can refuse to listen. This is exactly the how Jesus described God's struggle with His own people in Luke 13:34.

I have no problem with those scriptures. Have yall studied them? That's you guys responsibility first and foremost. Neither of those scriptures says that men in the flesh can please God or obey God. But scripture I provided says that man in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 and can't submit to God Rom 8:7. I am responsible for explaining those verses if need be. I will not do yalls work.

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[JudgeRightly]

Yes God Created some people for destruction, they are called vessels of wrath Rom 9 Also those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8!

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Someone repost this for B57's sake (don't just quote it).

*And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac *(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), *it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” *As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” - Romans 9:10-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans9:10-13&version=NKJV

"Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated" does not mean that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau before they were born. the "love and hate" is a Hebrew idiom that means "to love more and to love. God loved both Jacob and Esau, but God loved Jacob more.

Also notice that the passage does not say "for the children not yet being conceived." If the passage had said 'conceived," then predestination (and Calvinism) would have a leg to stand on. But it doesn't say "conceived," it says "born."

This is reaffirmed in Psalm 139, which is talking about the baby in the mothers womb. It has literally nothing to do with predestination, as many if not most Calvinists are taught.

*For You formed my inward parts;You covered me in my mother’s womb.*I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;Marvelous are Your works,And that my soul knows very well.*My frame was not hidden from You,When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.*Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.And in Your book they all were written,The days fashioned for me,When as yet there were none of them. - Psalm 139:13-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm139:13-16&version=NKJV

"Frame" = skeleton
"Made in secret" = from conception to birth, being formed in the womb
"the lowest parts of the earth" = Hebrew idiom for "in the womb"
"my substance, being yet unformed" = the very first cell, the formless baby
"in Your book they all were written" = pretty good description of DNA, even though it hadn't been discovered yet. We get most of our personality from our DNA, what we're going to be like as a person, physically and otherwise.
"the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them" = the moment that the sperm cell merges with the egg, God can know everything that He can know about that person

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[God's Truth]

Someone repost this for B57's sake (don't just quote it).

*And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac *(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), *it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” *As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” - Romans 9:10-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans9:10-13&version=NKJV

"Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated" does not mean that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau before they were born. the "love and hate" is a Hebrew idiom that means "to love more and to love. God loved both Jacob and Esau, but God loved Jacob more.

Also notice that the passage does not say "for the children not yet being conceived." If the passage had said 'conceived," then predestination (and Calvinism) would have a leg to stand on. But it doesn't say "conceived," it says "born."

This is reaffirmed in Psalm 139, which is talking about the baby in the mothers womb. It has literally nothing to do with predestination, as many if not most Calvinists are taught.

*For You formed my inward parts;You covered me in my mother’s womb.*I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;Marvelous are Your works,And that my soul knows very well.*My frame was not hidden from You,When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.*Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.And in Your book they all were written,The days fashioned for me,When as yet there were none of them. - Psalm 139:13-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm139:13-16&version=NKJV

"Frame" = skeleton
"Made in secret" = from conception to birth, being formed in the womb
"the lowest parts of the earth" = Hebrew idiom for "in the womb"
"my substance, being yet unformed" = the very first cell, the formless baby
"in Your book they all were written" = pretty good description of DNA, even though it hadn't been discovered yet. We get most of our personality from our DNA, what we're going to be like as a person, physically and otherwise.
"the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them" = the moment that the sperm cell merges with the egg, God can know everything that He can know about that person

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The Bible says that God hated Esau.

God who knows all knew that Esau would trade his inheritance for a bowl of food.

That does NOT mean that God caused Esau to do that.

 

[Shasta]

Foolish comment! He created them Vessels of Wrath. Sin brings Gods Wrath. Eph 5:6

6*Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

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Why should God be angry about people who live in sin when, according to you, He is the One responsible for making them sexually immoral, impure, and idolaters (Ephesians 5:5-6)? If the Heavenly Potter is responsible for giving them a moral character deserving of destruction then what is left for the Devil to do? I submit that God, who is Holy and Righteous does not make anyone into children of wrath but that this is the work of the flesh and the devil. Read Ephesians 2:1-3.

 

[beloved57]

Why should God be angry about people who live in sin when, according to you, He is the One responsible for making them sexually immoral, impure, and idolaters (Ephesians 5:5-6)? If the Heavenly Potter is responsible for giving them a moral character deserving of destruction then what is left for the Devil to do? I submit that God, who is Holy and Righteous does not make anyone into children of wrath but that this is the work of the flesh and the devil. Read Ephesians 2:1-3.

Because God is angry with sin and He wanted to create sinners to punish!

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[Shasta]

I have no problem with those scriptures. Have yall studied them? That's you guys responsibility first and foremost. Neither of those scriptures says that men in the flesh can please God or obey God. But scripture I provided says that man in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 and can't submit to God Rom 8:7. I am responsible for explaining those verses if need be. I will not do yalls work.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

To be in the flesh means to be serving the desires of the flesh. When God calls people to repent He means that they should give up this way of life and surrender to Him instead. When God calls Israel He makes a case to their wills by an appeal to their minds and emotions. "Turning back" necessarily involves the will It indicates that they had a choice to either turn or not turn. God never says "stand still and wait until I turn your mind." He commands THEM to turn.

Also, the fact that God did not delight in their death shows that He did not fashion them for destruction.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The Bible says that God hated Esau.

If you would have read what I wrote, I just explained this. In the passage I quoted, 'love and hate' is a Hebrew idiom meaning "to love more and to love." God doesn't hate innocent babies in their mothers' womb.

Not only that, but God wasn't talking about Jacob and Esau, He was talking about the two nations which were in their mother's womb, Israel and Canaan.

God who knows all knew that Esau would trade his inheritance for a bowl of food.

That does NOT mean that God caused Esau to do that.

God knowing the future is a tenet of Calvinism. The future is not settled. See the debate between Pastor Enyart and Dr. Lamerson on the topic of the future being settled or open.

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[Shasta]

Because God is angry with sin and He wanted to create sinners to punish!

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This is one of your most abominable posts. God makes people evil because He is generally ticked off at evil and wants someone to torture. If this is so why did He make the Devil at a time when there was no evil? If He hates evil why did He "predestine" Adam to fall into sin. Your god is a sadist. To avoid confusing anyone you should start calling Him Allah.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Because God is angry with sin and He wanted to create sinners to punish!

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Was there sin before God created? If not, then why would God create people, cause them to sin, and then be angry with them? That's schizophrenic, it's unhealthy, and God is neither.

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[God's Truth]

If you would have read what I wrote, I just explained this.

I did read what you wrote and I do not agree.

We do not have to learn Hebrew to know God's Truth.

The Bible has been translated.

In the passage I quoted, 'love and hate' is a Hebrew idiom meaning "to love more and to love." God doesn't hate innocent babies in their mothers' womb.

I believe what is plainly written and do not try to change what God says as you are doing.

Not only that, but God wasn't talking about Jacob and Esau, He was talking about the two nations which were in their mother's womb, Israel and Canaan.

Israel are Jacobs blood descendants and Canaan are Esau's blood relatives...children, great grandchildren, great great grandchildren, etc.

God knowing the future is a tenet of Calvinism.

No. God knows everything that will happen is NOT a tenet for Calvinism. You are wrong about that. God made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus, and God MADE THAT PLAN BEFORE the creation of the world.

The future is not settled. See the debate between Pastor Enyart and Dr. Lamerson on the topic of the future being settled or open.

I already know what I believe about that.

 

[beloved57]

This is one of your most abominable posts. God makes people evil because He is generally ticked off at evil and wants someone to torture. If this is so why did He make the Devil at a time when there was no evil? If He hates evil why did He "predestine" Adam to fall into sin. Your god is a sadist. To avoid confusing anyone you should start calling Him Allah.

God does what He wills, does not have to answer to you!

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[God's Truth]

I am re-posting the scriptures cited by GT adding some comments of my own.

Ezekiel 18:23
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."


Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

1. The Lord says He does not delight in the death of the wicked but, if he created certain people specifically to be "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" then why would He not be overjoyed? When the wicked die and enter hell they will have finally realized the very purpose for which they have been created. The fact that God is not happy about the outcome shows that it was not what He wanted for them.

2. We do not need to speculate about what God really wants for the wicked for He says so Himself. Instead of dying (and entering Eternity in a state of wickedness) God would rather that they turn from their evil ways and turn to Him.

3. The prophet, speaking for God, issues this agonized plea "Why then will you die, O house of Israel" Why indeed? There is no reason to go on in their wickedness and die when there was a way of escape. However, there would be a very good reason to continue the way they were going If they had no other choice. That reason would be God Himself who had predetermined both that they should be wicked and that they should inevitably be recipients of divine anger. If that is true, then why does God need to ask? Why act like they had a choice when they did not? Is this just theater, a morality play?

4. Reading these scriptures without any presuppositions how could anyone conclude that it was really God Himself who was guiding them irresistibly them towards destruction...while simultaneously pleading with them to repent? Would Israel have understood the prophecy this way? There is no evidence for this view in the text. Taken as it stands these verses say that God really wanted Israel to repent but that they refused His call and His warning.

5. It is evident then that God's call is not irresistible and that people whom God genuinely wants to turn around can refuse to listen. This is exactly the how Jesus described God's struggle with His own people in Luke 13:34.

Excellent defense for the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

God does what He wills, does not have to answer to you!

God says PLAINLY says He WANTS all to be saved and to turn from wickedness.

CALVINISTS say God's WILL is that they sin and die.

 

[beloved57]

To be in the flesh means to be serving the desires of the flesh. When God calls people to repent He means that they should give up this way of life and surrender to Him instead. When God calls Israel He makes a case to their wills by an appeal to their minds and emotions. "Turning back" necessarily involves the will It indicates that they had a choice to either turn or not turn. God never says "stand still and wait until I turn your mind." He commands THEM to turn.

Also, the fact that God did not delight in their death shows that He did not fashion them for destruction.

All men by nature are in the flesh !

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[God's Truth]

All men by nature are in the flesh !

We are flesh AND we have a spirit.

Not all are only interested in pleasing their flesh.

Some are interested in something more.

The people only interested in pleasing their flesh, they are the ones who cannot please God.

 

[beloved57]

God says PLAINLY says He WANTS all to be saved and to turn from wickedness.

CALVINISTS say God's WILL is that they sin and die.

False statements not found in scripture! God wants all His Elect saved and come into the Truth, and they most certainly will. All others He created for damnation.

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[beloved57]

We are flesh AND we have a spirit.

Not all are only interested in pleasing their flesh.

Some are interested in something more.

The people only interested in pleasing their flesh, they are the ones who cannot please God.

Sorry but all men by nature are in the flesh!

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[beloved57]

Excellent defense for the truth.

No defense what so ever. Those in the flesh can't please God or obey God Rom 8:7-8!

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[God's Truth]

False statements not found in scripture! God wants all His Elect saved and come into the Truth, and they most certainly will. All others He created for damnation.

You added the word 'elect'!
You also make God sound strange, for the elect WILL be saved, so how do you get that God would say He WANTS them to be saved?

See what happens when you change God's words around.

 

[beloved57]

We are flesh AND we have a spirit.

Not all are only interested in pleasing their flesh.

Some are interested in something more.

The people only interested in pleasing their flesh, they are the ones who cannot please God.

All men by nature are in the flesh!

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