Originally posted by satalien
That's cool with me.
The problem is that if I'm right and you're not, you won't be so cool; if you catch my drift.
Also fine with me. Perhaps this is true of the universe as well? It has always existed?
The universe cannot have always existed or else you and I would not be here. Don't forget about that pesky 2nd law of thermodynamics, the one about entropy and all. The universe would be a cold dead place; the stars would have all burned out long, long ago if the universe was literally forever old.
Oh you guessed well. But my disagreement is not due to being mischaracterized, rather that the 2 options you presented are the only 2 options the matter can "boil down to".
I meant the matter between the two of us, as I said it wasn't intended to be a complete listing of all possible worldviews. Glad we got this point cleared up. :thumb:
But, similar to what you ask of me, how can you know that the words you are reading in the Bible are real? Because they say they are?
No, this would be circular reasoning, another logical fallacy. The Bible is true because of the impossibility of the contrary. For an explanation of this see the link at the end of the post.
Actually, yes, that IS what I'm saying. Forgive my ignorance on logical argument-making (not my strong suit! but I'm willing to learn): What question is it begging?
Question begging is when you use an unsubstantiated claim as proof of another unsubstantiated claim. It is a form of circular reasoning (although there are examples of non-circular question begging.) I'll illustrate by using what you've said so you can see the fallacy more clearly.
Q.
How do you know that your senses are giving you accurate information?
A. Because I compare what I see with what other people see and I can thereby confirm that what I'm seeing is accurate.
Q. How do you find out what others see?
A. They tell me.
Q. Verbally, telepathically, by written letter, what? By what means is this information conveyed?
A. Pick one it doesn't matter.
Q. Okay, lets say it's verbally, how do you know what they are saying?
A. I hear it.
Q. Your ears sense it then?
A. Yes
Q.
How do you know that your senses are giving you accurate information?
Do you see it now? You are begging the very question that is originally being asked and are therefore no closer to an answer to that question.
How is it illogical for sensory receptors to sense themselves?
It is only illogical for them to calibrate themselves. Your senses cannot be used to check to see if your senses are accurate. If you try the circularity will very quickly get you dizzy! :dizzy:
I see my own eyes in the mirror and see that when I cover up the eyes, my vision is blocked. I can feel my fingers at two points when I touch the tips together...
You could be dreaming, you could be the figment of someone else's dream, you could be in the Matrix (cool movie by the way). The point is that you don't know, and have no way of finding out as long as you hang on to a logically incoherent worldview.
I can't be certain that the information is accurate. Some people have reported seeing things that others agree aren't there (a phenomenon known as "hallucinating"). In these cases, it seems perfectly reasonable that the one "hallucinating" is seeing the truth and the ones not seeing the giant cake on the horizon are the ones that are unable to see accurate information.
Yes indeed, the point is with your world view, you could be the one hallucinating and don't know that you aren't.
Are you certain that your own sensors are accurate? If so, I'd be delighted to know how.
I'm going to steal a line from someone in answer to this question because I can't think of any better way of putting it…
"This is known based on the revelation of God, as is all true and certain knowledge. "Knowledge" held by man apart from God is only a "best guess," or what they think they know -- so far."
Hahahah. No insult taken, that's one of the funniest questions I've ever been asked. I don't know how to reply to this. I don't necessarily really know what I know. What I do know is that if the world is a function only of my brain creating a reality on its own, it is so awesome and complex in its creation that I wouldn't want to spoil the fun by waking up. The other people (which again, could be holograms created by aliens who are studying the brain (which could be a simulation of something I can't quite comprehend at this time (and really this nested thing is getting tiresome))) in my life seem to confirm my reality for the most part and I get along fine in the world I was born into. Then again I could not exist at all. Does it matter?
What a question! Does it matter?
From your response I can't really tell if you are taking the question seriously or not. I suspect that you are but asking "Does it matter?" worries me. What else is there in all the world that could possibly be more important, what can you think of that could matter more than whether or not what we think, feel, see, say and do is real? If this life we are living isn’t real then why not "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!", right? If life isn't real then nothing you've ever done or ever will do is at all important. It sounds to me like it matters a whole lot.
…Everything could be made up. I don't care.
You've just plunged into the abyss of irrationality satalien. In doing so, you've also thrown in the towel with respect to this debate. How can you expect to have a rational conversation with someone you just admitted might not even be here? It's insane.
Further, whether you know it or acknowledge it or not, it is sinful for you not to care. You do understand that if you are indeed real then you are in rebellion against an equally real God whom you will one day give an account for the things you have done in this very real life, don't you?
This is very serious stuff we are talking about here and for you to flippantly blow off the idea that you might not even be a real person is pretty amazingly arrogant.
You're talking about certainty, you say.
Indeed I am.
I am certain that I've woken up into this world
No your not! That's just the point. You are not certain of anything by your own admission.
…with perceptions and I can't NOT have them.
Why not? Didn't you just say that people who hallucinate think that their perceptions are "perfectly reasonable"? Haven't you basically admitted that this person who is hallucinating could just as easily be you as anyone else?
To continually doubt them would deny me the pain and pleasures they bring.
The pain and pleasure are perceptions too, satalien! Is that really all life is to you, sensory stimulation, pain and pleasure? How empty of a life is that! What good is pleasure if it is meaningless, if it isn't real? Why would anything be pleasurable in the first place if you couldn't tell if it was even real or not? I do not understand how you can live like that.
These things are certain to me. This is part of the ground I stand on.
You have openly admitted that you are not certain of anything nor can you be with your worldview. You, therefore, are standing on nothing; you have instead fallen into a bottomless pit. I am attempting to throw you a rope, though. Hopefully you'll grab hold of it.
Can you deny these things are true for yourself?
No, I can't but I can claim their truth without being logically incoherent. Do not misunderstand; I am not saying that nothing can be known or that we cannot trust our senses. I am simply pointing out that without a proper worldview those things cannot be coherently accounted for; that without a proper worldview we suddenly find ourselves in a situation where we have to admit that the most important aspects of our lives might not even be real, which should be, to anyone with any integrity at all, a totally unacceptable situation to find themselves in. It is not my point to say that nothing can be known, my point is to demonstrate the logical incoherence of your world view. As you say, you cannot deny that your life is real and yet you have done that very thing by admitting that what you cannot verify anything that you think you know. It is completely incoherent. The Christian world view has no such difficulties.
There is much more that needs to be said but I'm out of time. If you are interested in hearing these arguments given by someone who's a whole lot smarter than me (not to mention a lot more familiar with the arguments themselves than I am), and if you are interested in understanding how the Christian world view is logically coherent and why all others are not, I strongly recommend that you listen to a debate between Dr. Greg Bahnsen and Dr. Gordon Stein on the subject, "
Does God Exist". It is the best debate on the issue that I have ever heard.
If you don't want to listen to the debate, I will attempt to communicate the ideas myself but I don't promise to do so with nearly the clarity that Dr. Bahnsen brings to the issue.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Speak for yourself.