Favorite Theologian?

[glorydaz]

Are you a theologian? Is this why you are so offended that I don't read theologians?

Don't project your insecurities onto me. You're the one who got your dander up over my use of the word, "Yet".

You have yet to respond to any of the scripture I have referred to, and while I have not quoted it, these texts are so well known that you know they exist.

Why should I respond to the scripture you referred to when it takes the backseat to your defensiveness?

Instead you have made this an ad hominen attack, instead of addressing what I have shown out of scripture.

Ah, yes, your old charge of "ad hominen" attack. Once again, it's all about your easily wounded ego. :chuckle:

Everything you highlighted in your response comes straight from scripture.

BTW, I'm not very impressed either....

That's good, because I'm not out to impress you. :carryon:

 

[Danoh]

If you are seeing believers struck dead because of sin, as that seems your point, let us know.

Clearly, one of us have read things into that passage that it is not asserting.

Which can mean only one thing.

One of us has mis-fired in our study approach somewhere.

Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[Nihilo]

No, but I am an atheist so take that with a grain of salt.

I remember reading Confessions and the City of God, but do not recall the part you mention. Please refresh my memory.

Do you believe Jesus Christ's resurrection is a nonfictional historical fact?

 

[Danoh]

I notice you act like Paul didn't go on ....

Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.​

I notice you concluded I acted like that, and then ran with your conclusion.

As usual.

:doh:

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[glorydaz]

I notice you concluded I acted like that, and then ran with your conclusion.

As usual.

:doh:

Rom. 5: 6-8.

No, I merely pointed out that you stopped too soon, and should have continued if you wanted to preach the whole truth.


So many sensitive men nowadays.

 

[musterion]

The authority of Paul's words which were addressed to the church at Corinth and also addressed to those in every place who call on the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor.1:2). That must include all of the believers in the first century which included ALL the Jewish believers.

And here is what he told them:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

ALL of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ. Therefore, the first epistle of John was written to those belonging to the Body of Christ. And this is what John tells them:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

You ignored the bulk of my post. It's okay, the reason why is clear.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You ignored the bulk of my post. It's okay, the reason why is clear.

Please address what I said about what Paul wrote in the first epistle to the Corinthians and I will answer any point which you have.

 

[musterion]

No point. We've got two incompatible dispensational operating systems working here.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No point. We've got two incompatible dispensational operating systems working here.

Your so-called dispensational operating system is directly contradicted by what Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13.

Run, run, run!

 

[Right Divider]

Christians will return with the Lord Jesus to the earth and they will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2). So who would be more qualified to judge the segment of the world belonging to the twelve tribes than the Twelve?

You believe that the catching away is followed by an immediate return to earth? What happened to the body of Christ's role in heavenly places?

Do you not realize that those who lived under the law were saved in the same exact way whereby we are saved, by grace through faith?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

As Paul said, if it is of works then it is not of grace. Besides that, the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law and as you can see the blessings were received strictly by faith:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

Why do you repeatedly falsely accuse me of believing that anyone can be saved apart from grace?

Again, the words of John here can only be speaking of being in the Body of Christ:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

Besides that, John was expecting to be raptured (1 Jn.3:2) and only those in the Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

1 John 3:2 the catching away..... that's pure fantasy Jerry.

So you don't think that Paul was the first member of the body of Christ?
You think that all believers constitute the body of Christ?

Who was the first member of the body of Christ?
Why no mention of the body of Christ until Paul?

 

[SUTG]

Do you believe Jesus Christ's resurrection is a nonfictional historical fact?

Not sure if I understand the question, or your intended differences between historical facts, nonfictional historical facts, and fictional historical facts. But I'm still going to guess the answer to your question is "No".

 

[Danoh]

No, I merely pointed out that you stopped too soon, and should have continued if you wanted to preach the whole truth.


So many sensitive men nowadays.

Wasn't being sensitive.

Just you reading into another's words once more.

It is continually amusing, this ignorance of yours - how you consistently take issue when it is pointed out to you that you have read into a thing, only for you to not only do so again, but accuse the other side of being the one guilty of both those issues.

You're a real headcase. O look, one of your fellow head cases high-fived your ignorance. Well, at least you are not alone.

:doh:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You believe that the catching away is followed by an immediate return to earth? What happened to the body of Christ's role in heavenly places?

I never said that there would be an immediate return to the earth after the rapture.

Why do you repeatedly falsely accuse me of believing that anyone can be saved apart from grace?

In case you forgot it was you who brought up 1 Peter 3:21 in a failed attempt to try to prove that those who received the epistles of Peter could not be saved apart from submitting to the rite of water baptism.

1 John 3:2 the catching away..... that's pure fantasy Jerry.

I have already shown you that according to Paul at 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13 all first century believers, both Jews and Gentiles, belonged to the Body of Christ so what we read at 1 John 3:2 is indeed speaking about the rapture. But you continue to insist that only "some" of the first century Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ despite the fact that Paul said that "all" were baptized into the Body. Now I will present evidence that proves that the saints who received the Jewish epistles were indeed waiting to be caught up.

The teaching that the rapture is "imminent" is supported by the following passage:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In the Hebrew epistles we read of the same imminent coming of the Lord:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8; NIV).

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

So James 5:8-9 declares in no uncertain terms that an "imminent" coming is in view, the same one described here by Pastor Paul Sadler:

"According to Paul's gospel the Rapture is "imminent," that is, it could take place at any moment. There are no signs, times, or seasons that will precede this glorious event" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, "The Present Obsession With the Anti-Christ," The Berean Searchlight, June, 1999, 7).

Since it is impossible that there can be two different appearances of the Lord Jesus which can be described as being "imminent" then those who received the Hebrew epistles will be caught up just like all the other members of the Body of Christ.

Now I would appreciate it if you would address the implications of what Paul said at 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13.

Thanks!

 

[Nihilo]

Not sure if I understand the question, or your intended differences between historical facts, nonfictional historical facts, and fictional historical facts. But I'm still going to guess the answer to your question is "No".

There's just some qualification due to some people I've run across who believe He is risen, but not exactly as straightforwardly as if it was an objective, historical fact. A fact of history, like that Rome burned down during Nero's reign. Nobody believes that Rome only burned down "spiritually," or something goofy like that, but some people believe that Jesus Christ is risen "spiritually," or something goofy like that.

I figured your answer was No, I'm just out looking for a "white whale" where someone does believe that Jesus Christ is nonfictionally risen from the dead, but who does not believe in God.

Thanks. :e4e:

 

[Danoh]

What happens if a Christian does not judge himself in regard to his behavior?:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:29-32).​

...

The damnation in that first set of passages is the issue of the opposite of the approved in the following...

1 Corinthians 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

That is the damnation - in contrast to those approved in their conduct, those others stuck out in their divisiveness as unapproved.

In other words, here they were with all these amazing blessings, including the gift of healing mentioned in the next chapter, but they were so stingy towards the others that to the condemnation of their testimony before the world in their withholding of these blessings from the poorest among them, some of their poorest had ended up going from ending up sickly from having been left unattended to, to starving and even dying.

A common event in that very, very cruel and harsh 1st Century world.

He is referring to their shame as Believers before the world. They were no better than the world.

There was no "do this in remembrance of me" in their coming together to do things "in remembrance of me," because there was no "in remembrance of me" in their heart attitude in general.

Which is what this is talking about...

1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

Why wasn't it the Lord's supper?

We can go by what incompetents conclude, or we can simply follow the flow of Paul's thought.

Why wasn't their coming together into one place to eat, not the Lord's supper?

11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

Which naturally flows into the following...

11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

How so Paul? What was it they were violating by that?

11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

In other words, their heart attitude was supposed to have been...

11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Instead, Paul had had to lament..

11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

How so? That is verse 22, hereinabove.

But hold that thought, a minute.

11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Okay, back to our question - how so?

In this manner....

11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Okay, that is verse 22. What else?

Being that he continues this same thought in chapter 12, we read there concerning this not discerning of the Lord's Body...

1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

THAT is what "not discerning the Lord's Body" is referring to...

12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Back to chapter...

1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Judged / chastened of the Lord?

Being that Galatians had been written to Believers who had also ended up biting and devouring one another, the Judged / Chastened is this issue...

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And that is something one brings on one self by one's own hand.

God allowing one to bring about the reaping of one's own sewing, on oneself.

Why?

Because we are not under the Law.

Because we are under Grace.

And under Grace, the question ends up one of "will our sewing reap forth corruption by our own hand, or will it reap forth fruit that will last into eternity?"

Or as he put that principle elsewhere, in fact, to.the Corinthians...

2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

To the Galatians he had said...

Galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Thus, why the following ends as it does...

1 Corinthians 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

And speaking of said well-doing and Grace - Amazing Grace, it is.

Just look at what he said to them after all that, just 4 chapters later...

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

In remembrance of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.