Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

[6days]

If that is true, why do we never find the remains of modern animals (i.e. horses, cattle, dogs, humans, etc) in the same bone beds that we find dinosaur bones in?

It is true what I said about paleontologist Kurt Wise. You can read his article if you wish, explaining why he says that horse fossils and others are more consistent with the creation model than the evolutionary model.


As to my opinion.... I don t know the answer but can make some possible guesses. From God's Word we can possibly infer there are no pre-flood human fossils, as God said He would destroy humans from the face of the earth. We can also look at evidences humans did coexist with dinosaurs, such as cave drawings, Book of Job Marco Polo account etc. (These are all dismissed out of hand by evolutionists with their circular reasoning). We could also look at circular 'logic that often goes into dating fossils... dates have been moved by more than 100 million years, based on the evolutionary beliefs.


If you want to understand better why paleontologist Kurt Wise believes the fossil evidence is consistent with the straight forward reading of God's Word, I can link you to various peer reviewed articles.

 

[The Barbarian]

Okay, I think I've gotten basically all I'm gonna get here. I do want to thank The Barbarian for participating so enthusiastically and with intellectual honesty, not to mention some pretty thick skin.

Your integrity was a welcome change for me. Thanks for the discussion.

Edit: Not saying that there aren't other honest creationists here, but unfortunately there are also...

Let's see what we can find out about motor proteins...

We herein report recent advances in our understanding of transport protein evolution. The Drug-Metabolite Transporter (DMT) superfamily (TC# 2.A.7) arose from a 2TMS precursor to give 4TMS proteins which then added one and duplicated to give 10. The proposed pathway is 2 –> 4 –> 5 –> 10. This superfamily provides a rare example where all proposed topological intermediates in this evolutionary pathway have been identified in current protein databases. Another family, the Oligopeptide Transporter (OPT) family (TC# 2.A.67), also started with a 2 TMS peptide precursor, but it followed the pathway:
equation image

Only 16 and 17 TMS OPT family members have been identified in current databases. The TRIC family of K+ channels, characterized in animals, arose via the pathway:
equation image

where the seventh TMS was added c-terminally to the 6 TMS precursor that resulted from a 3 TMS duplication. Surprisingly, animal TRIC channels proved to have numerous 7 TMS homologues in prokaryotes, none of which had been identified previously. We found that two families of integral membrane proteins gave rise to multiple current topological types. Members of the SdpC killer factor immunity protein family, SdpI (TC# 9.A.32) probably arose via the pathway:
equation image

while members of the Heme Handling Protein (HHP) Family (TC# 9.B.14) arose via the pathway:
equation image

Predictions are also made for an evolutionary pathway giving rise to the seven topological types of P-type ATPases so far identified in the P-ATPase superfamily. Finally, the ubiquitous CDF carriers (TC# 1.A.4) of 6TMSs probably gave rise to CRAC channels of 4TMSs by loss of the first two TMSs an unusual example of retroevolution.
http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC4008129

So the advanced transport proteins seen in advanced eukaryotes have simpler and less-efficient precursors in other living things.

Abstract
Bacterial Membrane Transport: Superfamilies of Transport Proteins
The bacterial transport systems enable bacteria to accumulate needed nutrients, extrude unwanted by products and maintain cytoplasmic content of protons and salts conducive to growth and development. Two most widely spread superfamilies of transporters are the ion-coupled systems that take part in chemiosmotic circuits, and the ABC solute ATPases (adenosine triphosphatases), whose operation is linked to ATP hydrolysis. The crystal structure of several bacterial transporters has recently been determined, a major breakthrough in the research of transporters. It opened the field to a combined study of structure, function and computation. Several of the structurally deciphered bacterial transporters have eukaryotic orthologues including neurotransmitter transporters that play major roles in health and disease and are major drug targets. Hence, the bacterial transport systems are important both for elucidating the mechanism of transport as well as drug design.
Key concepts:

Crystal structures are essential for understanding the mechanism of transport.

Topology model of transporters obtained from the primary amino acid sequence, the positive-inside rule and experimental data have been validated by the crystal structure.

Primary transporters utilize external source of energy to drive active transport.

The secondary transporters utilize the energy stored in a pre-existing gradient to drive transport.

The MFS, major facilitator superfamily, encompasses the largest number of evolutionary related most diverse group of secondary transporters and the extensively studied LacY and GlpT with their crystal structures are educative examples.

Na+/H+ antiporters are essential for sodium and pH homeostasis in all cells and the most studied Escherichia coli NhaA with its crystal structure is an educative example.

The sodium-coupled secondary transporter LeuT is a bacterial homologue of human neurotransmitters transporters and therefore its crystal structure is an essential step in drug design.

The alternating access model is the mechanism of activity of secondary transporters.

The molecules of many secondary transporters exhibit internal symmetry that implies a unique evolution.

The internal symmetry of secondary transporters with the inverted repeats and the interrupted helices in the middle of the membrane is the structural basis of the activity mechanism.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470015902.a0003743.pub2/abstract

Clete, have you considered the concept of what the Intelligent Design people call "front-loading", wherein God builds into His creation, the ability of life to adapt and change to produce the different kinds of living things?

 

[6days]

@Clete, have you considered the concept of what the Intelligent Design people call "front-loading", wherein God builds into His creation, the ability of life to adapt and change to produce the different kinds of living things?

Hey.... Barbarian got so close to the truth with this one. The only thing wrong with his answer is that it is God who has created the different kinds. God did program the genomes so that organisms could survive and adapt. Rapid adaptation and even speciation is consistent with the biblical account. (There is a thread on that topic)

 

[Jonahdog]

You may or may not care... But if you continue with dishonest comments on what Kurt Wise says... I will continue posting his actual words. Wise does not believe in "intermediate forms", and calls the word 'transitional' an ambiguous word. He actually says that there are interpretations of fossils that can be understood to support macroevolution... But, "It is my understanding, for example, that the claim of an old earth denies the veracity of the first 11 chapters of Genesis", and that fossil evidence often better fits the Biblical account.

Then both you and Wise are simply incorrect

 

[Jonahdog]

Hey.... Barbarian got so close to the truth with this one. The only thing wrong with his answer is that it is God who has created the different kinds. God did program the genomes so that organisms could survive and adapt. Rapid adaptation and even speciation is consistent with the biblical account. (There is a thread on that topic)

But a literal reading of the Biblical account is not consistent with the real world.

 

[Interplanner]

But a literal reading of the Biblical account is not consistent with the real world.

Contra.

And:

http://www.icr.org/article/louis-agassiz-anti-darwinist-harvard

 

[Interplanner]

And other work on CPT:

http://www.icr.org/article/embracing-catastrophic-plate-tectonics

 

[Interplanner]

de Chardin:
"(Evolution) is a general postulate to which all theories, all hypotheses, all systems must henceforward bow and which they must satisfy in order to be thinkable and true. Evolution is a light which illuminates all facts, a trajectory which all lines of thought must follow." 1

Is there any doubt that a 'god' is being constructed? If you know de Chardin, you know the answer is no. That is the delusion we are dealing with. An intentional replacement.

(I don't mean to derail the thread but sometimes the bigger picture changes everything we are studying).

 

[The Barbarian]

Hey.... Barbarian got so close to the truth with this one.

This is a little over your head, let Clete handle it.

The only thing wrong with his answer is that it is God who has created the different kinds.

God created all things. You just don't approve of the way He did it.

God did program the genomes so that organisms could survive and adapt.

No. God doesn't have to tinker with nature to make it work. He created the universe, so that it would bring forth living things as He tells us it did in Genesis.

Rapid adaptation and even speciation is consistent with the biblical account.

Of course evolution is consistent with the Biblical account. That's what people have been telling you.

 

[Nihilo]

de Chardin:
"(Evolution) is a general postulate to which all theories, all hypotheses, all systems must henceforward bow and which they must satisfy in order to be thinkable and true. Evolution is a light which illuminates all facts, a trajectory which all lines of thought must follow." 1

Is there any doubt that a 'god' is being constructed? If you know de Chardin, you know the answer is no. That is the delusion we are dealing with. An intentional replacement.

(I don't mean to derail the thread but sometimes the bigger picture changes everything we are studying).

If evolution is hooey, then it's like the Emperor's New Clothes, except that when we cry out that he's naked, they treat us like we're on drugs.

 

[6days]

God created all things. You just don't approve of the way He did it.

As a told to you before, it is not a matter of us approving what God says; it is a matter of us believing it. He tells us He created everything in six days.... and that humans were part of that beginning.

No. God doesn't have to tinker with nature to make it work. He created the universe, so that it would bring forth living things as He tells us it did in Genesis.

Nobody said anything about God tinkering...other The iouae. God tells us he created everything in six days and that women were created from the rib of a man.

Of course evolution is consistent with the Biblical account. That's what people have been telling you.

If by the word Evolution you are equivocating to mean your common ancestry belief system then NO, That is not consistent with God's word. He tells us he created everything in six days and that various organisms were created according to kinds. If by the word Evolution you are referring to observable science such as rapid adaptation... then yes that is consistent with the creation account and a young creation

 

[User Name]

The reason I started the thread is because biology, a real science, just keeps mounting up the evidence against evolution and I happened across something I hadn't seen before the other day while wasting some time watching YouTube videos.

An explanation of how genetics provides evidence for evolution:

.

 

[6days]

An explanation of how genetics provides evidence for evolution

Secular geneticists are beginning to understand genetics works against the common ancestry belief system. Its something breeders have understood for a long time. Selection reduces the variation in a gene pool. Reduced variation leads to increased genetic problems. Selection can lead to very highly adapted organisms such as coral or island populations that are endangered.
Geneticists also understand that mutations (at least in all primates) is a downhill process. Selection is incapable of detecting and removing the vast majority of VSDM's... leading to increased genetic problems. They have created various models attempting to explain away the science (additive model, synergistic epistasis, multiplicative model)

Genetics helps confirm... God created everything, and that man was there from that beginning.

 

[User Name]

Secular geneticists are beginning to understand genetics works against the common ancestry belief system.

Confirmation bias, Dunning–Kruger effect, Self-deception, Conservatism bias, etc., all rolled into one.

 

[iouae]

Either palaeontologists are reading the rocks wrong when they say earth is 4.6 billion years old with complex life going back 540 million years, OR Christians are wrong reading the Bible to say everything is 6000 years old.

The "gap" between the two beliefs is too big to smudge together.

The Bible does not lie. God cannot lie. God never has to hide what He does on earth. The Bible is a very honest book, and does not try to hide anyone's sins. Nor the times God makes mistakes and sometimes loses His cool and wants to destroy, say, Israel.

I could write a book on the times God repents himself. Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Pre-flood humans disappointed God, probably because so few wanted Him. So He shortens their lives to make them feel more mortal.

Light takes 13 billion years to reach us from distant galaxies. Rocks with successive and different biota are all nicely layered worldwide. This convinces me that we Christians are wrong in reading Genesis to say everything is 6000 years old.

A cursory reading of Genesis says nothing about the age of the universe.

God scrupulously lists who begat who from Adam onwards so we add this up to be 6000 years. What we ignore is that the only years we are adding are years from Adam onwards.

Genesis 1:1 tells us that in the beginning God created the heaven and earth. No indication of when.

Genesis 1:2 tells us that earth "was without form and void".
The rocks tell us that the earth has been without form and void many times, after the many mass extinctions, where darkness and water vapour cover the earth (volcanoes, meteor strikes, ???). The dinosaurs died this way. The word "was" could equally be translated "became".

Isaiah 45:18 uses the very same Hebrew word used in Gen 1:2 telling us that God did NOT create earth "in vain" or "without form and void".

And when God speaks about creating the heavens and the earth and the seas - He is generally referring to the earth's heaven (with its flying things), earths animals, and earths ocean creatures. God is not referring to creating the cosmos as a whole. When God in six days creates the heavens, earth, seas and all that in them dwell, He is creating an earthly biome - saying nothing about the cosmos.

Science says the heaven was created 13.75 billion years ago, earth 4.6 billion years ago, so Gen 1:1 would be wrong if we were to interpret it to be speaking of the cosmos. Or science would be wrong. But that pesky light from 13 billion years ago just keeps on streaming in from distant galaxies, telling me who is wrong. Us Christians who interpret "heaven and earth" as meaning cosmos, instead of "heaven and earth" meaning sky and birds with earth and earth's creatures.

The phrase "in the beginning" always has a context and can refer to many different times. The context in Genesis is the creation of man, not the creation of the cosmos.

 

[iouae]

Note the change in tetrapod fossils from Devonian to Carboniferous.

When lines of new tetrapods arise out of the blue, I see a Creation intervention.

The dark lines represent actual fossils, the thin lines, evolutionary speculation.
They could equally be left out and we would see a creation event at the origin of each thick line.

Fig. 6.
Carboniferous time scale with superimposed family tree of tetrapods, including recent data on occurrences and allowing for uncertainty in parts of the tree. Arrows at the top of lines indicate that groups persisted into the Permian. The Devonian tetrapod tree is based on the study by Callier et al. (47). The Carboniferous tetrapod tree (6, 7, 35) is shown with the node for the origin of the crown group on those phylogenies marked by A. Alternative phylogenies (11, 12) place the node for the origin of the crown group at B. All phylogenies imply an origin for the crown group no later than the early to mid-Viséan. Casineria is placed incertae sedis among the stem amniotes, and the Burnmouth foot is placed outside the tree. Whatcheeriids may extend into the Late Devonian (48), “microsaurs” into the Brigantian (49), and Crassigyrinus into the Tournaisian (this paper). Dating is according to the study by Gradstein et al. (20). Ad, adelogyrinids; Am, amiotes; An, anthracosaurs; Ai, aïstopods; Ba, baphetoids; BB, Blue Beach; Bm, Burnmouth; BmF, Burnmouth foot; Ca, Casineria; Co, colosteids; Cr, Crassigyrinus; Di, diadectids; EK, East Kirkton; Ge, gephyrostegids; Mi, microsaurs; Ne, nectrideans; Se, seymouriamorphs; Te, temnospondyls; Wh, whatcheeriids; WH/Db, Willie's Hole/Dumbarton.

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/12/4532.full

 

[iouae]

I'm looking at it from the perspective of a lifetime in biology. When I started out there were no transitional forms for whales, turtles, birds, frogs, land vertebrates, ants, termites... (very long list) and now we have them for all of these. The fossil record is spotty and until we figure out where to look, we overlook a lot of things.

Barbarian, I believe Darwin had problems with the Cambrian explosion. But he believed that with more fossils, we would see a connection between Pre-Cambrian (Ediacaran) biota, and Cambrian biota.

There are complete lists of Precambrian multicellular animals, and Cambrian multicellular animals. There is still no connection between the two lists. The Ediacarans died out and (almost) all the modern Phyla appear in the Cambrian. That is a creation event.

Thanks for your posts.

 

[Clete]

Clete, have you considered the concept of what the Intelligent Design people call "front-loading", wherein God builds into His creation, the ability of life to adapt and change to produce the different kinds of living things?

I've not ever heard it discussed specifically, no. It is clear, however, that living things can and do adapt to their environment to one degree or another. The production of "different kinds" of living things is a loaded statement. Poodles and Rotweilers are "different kinds" of dogs, but they're still dogs. There are tens of thousands of different kinds of spiders but they are all still spiders.

Why do you ask?

 

[Clete]

An explanation of how genetics provides evidence for evolution:

.

There is no evidence for evolution. You guys really do need to take a class in sound reasoning. Everything you guys claim as evidence isn't evidence, it's just another claim. You find a fossil that is similar to another fossil and CLAIM that it is evidence of evolution. You find similar genetics in animals with similar biology (BIG SURPRISE THERE!) and CLAIM that it not just evidence but proof of evolution. The idiot in that video even goes so far as to make the argument in relation to the human's genetic similarity to apes, "Can it just be coincidence?" I stopped watching after that. There was no need to go further. As I said in my previous post, I cannot comprehend how anyone can consider evolution to be science. It just isn't and cannot be defended in any sort of scientific manner. It's just one unsubstantiated claim and/or haste generalization fallacy after another.

Don't misunderstand. Genetics is science. Biology is science. It's evolution that is not. Evolution is a worldview, a paradigm through which science is interpreted. Evolution is one gigantic confirmation bias delusion.

Clete

 

[6days]

Either palaeontologists are reading the rocks wrong when they say earth is 4.6 billion years old with complex life going back 540 million years, OR Christians are wrong reading the Bible to say everything is 6000 years old.

Paleontologist Kurt Wise says the best interpretation of the evidence fits the Biblical account of a young earth. He says "It is my understanding, for example, that the claim of an old earth denies the veracity of the first 11 chapters of Genesis".

....God makes mistakes and sometimes loses His cool and wants to destroy, say, Israel.

Your rejection of Genesis has lead you to your heretical beliefs, and your idolatry. You have placed yourself above Him...as if you can be His judge.

I could write a book on the times God repents himself. Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth and it grieved him at his heart.

Scripture tells us that God is not like man who changes His mind. He tells us "For I, the LORD, do not change".

So with Gen. 6:6, should we interpret that to mean God does change His mind? If that is true, then on what basis do we trust other things in scripture?... Our salvation is on pretty shaky ground if God changes his mind and makes mistakes. As many theologians suggest the word 'repented' is anthromophic, to help us understand how grieved God's heart was. Even the word 'heart' is anthromorphic in this verse. We should use scripture to help interpret Scripture... God is unchanging.

Pre-flood humans disappointed God, probably because so few wanted Him. So He shortens their lives to make them feel more mortal.

Humans became mortal when first Adam sinned.

Light takes 13 billion years to reach us from distant galaxies.

No... you are confusing distance with time.

A cursory reading of Genesis says nothing about the age of the universe.

Cursory reading? Hmmmm

God scrupulously lists who begat who from Adam onwards so we add this up to be 6000 years. What we ignore is that the only years we are adding are years from Adam onwards.

Correct. Jesus referred to Adam and Eve as being there from the beginning of the creation... the account in Genesis where everything was created in 6 days.

Genesis 1:2 tells us that earth "was without form and void"

Yes... of course. God could have instantly created, but instead He formed and filled the earth over the course of six days

The rocks tell us that the earth has been without form and void many times, after the many mass extinctions

If you think the rocks speak, then they tell us of sudden appearance and a catastrophic burial. Science helps confirm the truth of God's Word.

...(volcanoes, meteor strikes, ???). The dinosaurs died this way.

Science helps confirm the truth of God's word and shows us how most of the dinosaurs died. Dinosaurs died and were buried rapidly in water-borne sediment. This is puzzling to secularists. https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/dinosaur-death-pose-mystery

And when God speaks about creating the heavens and the earth and the seas - He is generally referring to the earth's heaven (with its flying things), earths animals, and earths ocean creatures. God is not referring to creating the cosmos as a whole.

Playing word gymnastics with God's Word, has lead you into heretical beliefs of a God who makes mistakes. Here is what God says about the cosmos in the creation account. (from Youngs Literal) "16 And God maketh the two great luminaries, the great luminary for the rule of the day, and the small luminary -- and the stars -- for the rule of the night;17 and God giveth them in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth...19 and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day fourth."


Ex. 20:11 God tells us He created "everything" in six days.g

We could also look at a variety of other verses but I think the only place that the word Cosmos is used in scripture is Romans 1:20 Paul tells us that the invisible things of God have been seen and percieved since the creation of the world. The Greek word used here is 'kosmos... the orderly universe. along with the Greek words 'Noeo' and 'horao'. Paul clearly is placing human intelligence existing from the time of the creation of the cosmos... the creation account in Genesis 1

Science says the heaven was created 13.75 billion years ago...

Science says nothing. Science is the method of how we investigate the world around us. God's Word tells us that in six days He created the heavens and the Earth and everything in them. (stars and humans in the six days) Science is one of the ways that helps confirm the truth of God's word.