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Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Alright [MENTION=2589]Clete[/MENTION], here is my guess.

Evolution works on an expressed phenotype, and expressed allele. The phenotype can either be beneficial or not. If it is beneficial, then it is passed to the next generation. If it is not then it may or may not be passed on depending on how non-beneficial it is.

Let us take a fish, a pre-mud skipper if you will. It is swimming in shallow pools and when they dry up and run out of food, the fish has a rather big problem. At some point, for some unknown reason, a mutation occurs in the genes that control the fin development such that the bones of the fin become stronger. The fish happens to discover that its fins are strong enough that it can pull itself across the ground mud to a different pool when his runs out of food. The phenotype of this fish conveys an enhanced ability to survive so it is based on to future generations.

Looking at other animals, crabs, insects, arthropods, we might have to go back farther in time to single cell animals. Single cell animals developed flagella to move because it gave them an advantage. It is possible that the different phylum's each developed from a different single cell animal. Some developed 6 legs that walk sideways (crabs) while others developed 6 legs that move forward (insects).

The idea is that small beneficial changes add up over time. It is a concept that is actually used quite frequently in engineering. But here is where my gap in understanding comes in. Evolution can only act on an expressed phenotype. A phenotype is an expressed allele in a gene. Gene mutations are random so we are counting on a random mutation to create an allele that does something good. It gets further complicated by the fact that the stronger bones in my mud skipper example above is grossly incomplete. We would require a series of mutations that makes the bones stronger and the muscles stronger as well. Plus we have to have mutations to the gills to allow the fish to survive as it moves between pools. So it is not just one gene that needs to mutate. It is not even the just the genes dealing with fins that must mutate, we have multiple gene mutations required. And at some point we have to figure out how all new chromosomes come into existence. I have a rather large gap in understanding the details of genetics. I call that gap the ignorance gap because I have not taken the time to study in years and years.

That said, when we look at the fossil record it is fairly easy to see that all vertebrate animals can trace back to some single point of origin. When we compare the bone structures of whales and elephants and bats and people we can see all of the same bones though they are significantly in shape in size. This speaks to a common ancestor. I digress.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about many things.

Hi Eleos, nice to have you on this forum.

All human activities, including science have elements of faith. Evolutionists are believers in the unseen. Quantum physicist's are believers in the unseen.

Creation and the Bible: One can dismiss the Bibles explantion of creation. However, the bible is a prophetic book and many of these prophesies (historical events) are verified through documented history, historical documents and or acchological finds. The odds of anyone being able to predict the future with a very high level of accuracy (that is the more detailed the prediction) the odds of those predictions coming true become a extremely high bar to discount as to chance or any other explantion. With science one must also consider odds. However with science there is not not necessaryily confirmed by documented history that support the theory rather it is theory based on theory.

Dozens of prophesies about Christ were fulfilled. Every person saying they were living in the end time, has been a liar, to date.

one example - the fossil record … there is nothing in the “fossil record” that shows the transition of one form into another …. on the contrary it shows the full forms. In the earth’s “layers” from the depths we are able to look at through core samples, in those layers lacks a record of transition and then there appears fully formed life of various kinds.

Very good point. Every fossil was fully functional and able to live.

Science attempts to tie everything material to it’s theories. God ties everything to the spiritual.

Considering the odds:

The Spiritual - The Bible a prophetic and set of historical books. That is it predicts the future before it happens. In order for this to be believed there has to be historical accounts verifying that events were predicted with historical evidence (secular records) to prophesy(s) made. There is a lot of historical evidence (secular records) that verify biblical accounts …. through people that lived, events in history that are documented, archeogical findings etc. many that coincide with prophicies made in the Bible. So then we come to the question of odds. Predictions - the more detailed the prediction the higher the odds become that they are true and reliable. Many predictions made in the Bible are verifiable (secular history) and many are very detailed making the odds of the predictions extremely high … so high they can not be ignored, yet they are. Mostly due to people not looking at prophesies in the Bible and then comparing them with documented history. Their “beliefs” are formed without using biblical accounts into the consideration of what they believe. If the Bible is not considered … then one is not considering all evidence and therefore their arguments are futile.

So in the Bible is this verse of why we believe Gods word and therefore can be confident in it. (Again - Much much much verifiable by history)

2nd Peter


19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Spiritual … yet verifiable by history. So detailed even if looking at prophesy with a rational mind can not be ignored.

Weigh the evidence … all the evidence, including the Bible. I encourage all to do so.

If one were to do a proper statistical analysis of what prophets and preachers say will happen, compared with what actually happens, I personally think there will be no correlation.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Is Googling "evolutionary origin of legs" too difficult?
I already know the answers to the questions I'm asking...
If you already "know" the answer is "goddidit" what is the point?

This is a debate forum. It's a place where people come to debate stuff. Get it?
If you agree with the evolutionary and scientific "explanation" what is there to "debate"?

... moron.
If this were a "debate", I win.

There isn't much pretending necessary...
Then do it! Show me how its at all reasonable to think that legs could have evolved. If you're so much smarter than I am, it ought to be easy for you. So do it!
I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.
 

eleos

New member
Are you willing to learn about prophesies in the Bible that are verified by documented history, historical documents and or archeological findings?
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
one example - the fossil record … there is nothing in the “fossil record” that shows the transition of one form into another …. on the contrary it shows the full forms. In the earth’s “layers” from the depths we are able to look at through core samples, in those layers lacks a record of transition and then there appears fully formed life of various kinds.
Actually this is not a true statement. Just because something is fully formed and alive before it was fossilized does not mean that it is not a transitional form. For instance:

Horseevolution.jpg

In this case, the Pliohippus is the transitional form from Merychippus to Equus.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Are you willing to learn about prophesies in the Bible that are verified by documented history, historical documents and or archeological findings?

Yes.

Give us one that is happening today, and let's see if it would convince an unbeliever that the Bible is true.
 

eleos

New member
There are many scientists that use science to support creation and creation is actually becoming more and more scientifically supported as time goes on.

Daniel 12

4“But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

knowledge will increase ---- and it has ..... and it does .... and it will ;o)

Science will eventually catch up with God in varying degrees to what degrees unknown ... the sad thing is ... by the time it does so more fully ... there will be many many that have forfeited eternal life, with a perfect God, in a perfect world and again for eternity. A lot at stake ... ALOT

Revelation 21

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling placea of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Eternal life .... or Eternal death...... Eternity .... think about it.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Actually this is not a true statement. Just because something is fully formed and alive before it was fossilized does not mean that it is not a transitional form. For instance:

Horseevolution.jpg

In this case, the Pliohippus is the transitional form from Merychippus to Equus.

Wiki...
Mesohippus (Greek: μεσο/meso meaning "middle" and ιππος/hippos meaning "horse") is an extinct genus of early horse. It lived some 30 to 40 million years ago from the Middle Eocene to the Early Oligocene. Browser.

Wiki...
Merychippus is an extinct proto-horse of the family Equidae that was endemic to North America during the Miocene, 15.9–10.3 million years ago.[2] It had three toes on each foot and is the first horse known to have grazed.

The typical horse evolution line you gave has Mesohippus give rise to Merychippus.

One was a browser, one a grazer. One lived "30-40 million years ago" and the other "15.9–10.3 million years ago".

That's a 14 million year gap, and a complete change of diet, yet evolutionists say one gave rise to the other.
Where is the proof for this? There is a 14 million year gap, and one grazes and one browses.

There is zero proof one came from the other. But for evolutionists, they need a connection.

And thousands of mammals have NO, ZERO, NADA, NIL animals which look like early versions of themselves or missing links.

So the horse has some similar looking ancestors. Must I find deer with increasingly longer necks and say they are precursor giraffes?
 

iouae

Well-known member
Daniel 12

4“But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

knowledge will increase ---- and it has ..... and it does .... and it will ;o)

I am a believer.

But don't you think its a safe prophecy to say that knowledge will increase?

Is this biblical or secular knowledge increase?
Will many go to and fro in their Bibles/Strongs etc. which will make Biblical knowledge increase?

You need a prophecy like, when there is a tetrad of blood moons, something will happen to Israel?
Wait, we had a tetrad, and nothing happened, other than the normal happenings. And could a prophecy be less specific than the tetrad one. I laughed at this foolish tetrad prophecy when I heard it years ago.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Wiki...
Mesohippus (Greek: μεσο/meso meaning "middle" and ιππος/hippos meaning "horse") is an extinct genus of early horse. It lived some 30 to 40 million years ago from the Middle Eocene to the Early Oligocene. Browser.

Wiki...
Merychippus is an extinct proto-horse of the family Equidae that was endemic to North America during the Miocene, 15.9–10.3 million years ago.[2] It had three toes on each foot and is the first horse known to have grazed.

The typical horse evolution line you gave has Mesohippus give rise to Merychippus.

One was a browser, one a grazer. One lived "30-40 million years ago" and the other "15.9–10.3 million years ago".

That's a 14 million year gap, and a complete change of diet, yet evolutionists say one gave rise to the other.
Where is the proof for this? There is a 14 million year gap, and one grazes and one browses.

There is zero proof one came from the other. But for evolutionists, they need a connection.

And thousands of mammals have NO, ZERO, NADA, NIL animals which look like early versions of themselves or missing links.

So the horse has some similar looking ancestors. Must I find deer with increasingly longer necks and say they are precursor giraffes?

Gradual changes postulated by the ToE account for changes in diet and size. 14 million years is a long time. Climates probably changed resulting in changes in vegetation and, eventually, eating styles. The problem with most creationists is that they expect to see a transitional form that has all these special traits from two distinct forms in the fossil record. Evolution doesn't work that way. There is a concept known as the genetic monster. When an animal gives birth to something completely different, it is a genetic monster. Some have postulated that this is how new species are created. Problem is, for that to happen, you would need to have two monsters, one male and one female, born close enough together in tiem and space to form a mating pair. Those are some long odds.

Evolution says gradual change. Longer legs to cover more distance and for protection from predators. Change from browsing to grazing because grass is better suited to grazing than browsing.

Here is a chart for giraffes:
F5.large_.jpg
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Then why not say so from the get go?
There was no need to.

Besides, I said explicitly that there was a reason I was asking that I'd get to in due time.

Whether I know the answer or not, has nothing to do with whether you do nor with whether you have the ability to articulate it.

Then you pick an animal and tell us where it got its legs.
No. I have intention of picking any animal. You pick the animal. I don't care about what the animal is, I care about where the legs came from - even from just a purely conceptual perspective. In other words, I don't need details. Just some conceptual idea of how evolution accounts for the origin of legs.

I suppose you will say on the 6th day, God....
...and the whole asking what evolutionists think is just irrelevant.
On the contrary, what the evolutionists think is THE ENTIRE POINT!

I have you on ignore because you're an idiot, so don't bother addressing me any further. It was pure luck that I even noticed this post.

Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
If you already "know" the answer is "goddidit" what is the point?
No, you misunderstand. I know what the evolutionist's answer is. My surprise is only in the lack of an answer that you guys have come up with. I mean, "legs came from fins" is pretty weak. It's certainly a whole lot weaker than I would have expected. It seems that you are all completely ignorant of any evolutionary explanation for four pairs of six jointed legs on every single spider in existence. I starting to believe that evolution has devolved into mere claims that it happened with no effort at all being put into the question of how or why or when.

If you agree with the evolutionary and scientific "explanation" what is there to "debate"?
I don't agree with it.

If this were a "debate", I win.
You haven't even engaged it. If you would like to offer an answer, I'd enjoy reading it.

I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.
It's my thread, bub. If you want to participate then I invite you to do so. If you don't then I can't make you but don't kid yourself, you've not won any debate here. It hasn't even gotten started yet.


Clete
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
I read your post too fast and looked right over this!

This is PRECISELY the sort of thing I'm look for.

What data?

I don't need detailed specifics just in general, what do you mean by "genetic, anatomical and fossil data" and what does it tells us about where legs come from?

Sorry, had to go out of town last week. Didn't do much here, and missed this.

Genetic, because evo-devo has shown the same homeobox genes responsible for fins are also responsible for vertebrate legs.

Here's just one, which is striking:
2_1.png


So now we have anatomical and genetic information showing the evolution of limbs. As I think I mentioned, the first walking vertebrate didn't walk on land. Acanthostega was a fish, with a lateral line system, internal gills, rayed fin tail, and limb connections to the spine too weak to let it walk on land. It walked on the bottom of ponds.

Because someone in this thread mentioned coelacanths as a putative human ancestor, it's important to note that they aren't. They are lobed-fin fish, and land vertebrates did evolve from lobed-fin fishes, but not coelacanths. And Coelacanths living today are much evolved from their ancient ancestors anyway.

The lungfish are much closer to our line, and not surprisingly, lungfish are more closely related genetically to us than they are to a bass. BTW, lungs in fish seem to have evolved before swimbladders. Lungs aren't modified swimbladders, swimbladders are modified lungs. That's a bit of a diversion, but we can talk about it separately, if you'd like to know how we know.

Other branches of lobed-fin fish developed more interesting structures.

gr1.jpg


Having found the right strata, paleontologists are pulling all sorts of half-fish/half-tetrapods out of the rocks, and it seems that there was a lot of selective pressure toward walking.

Limbs in fish have evolved at least twice since. Mudskippers have modified fins to "walk" and even climb trees.

mudskipper-climbing-tree.jpeg


The sargassum fish lives in "forests" of sargassum seaweed, and have evolved "hands" from their fins to climb around in the weed.

histrio-histrio-2.jpg


Edit: Apparently it's happened at least three times. Frogfish use fins to walk along the bottom.


It looks weird, because it's the same bones, using the same motion as we see in tetrapods.
 
Last edited:

6days

New member
Actually this is not a true statement. Just because something is fully formed and alive before it was fossilized does not mean that it is not a transitional form. For instance:

Horseevolution.jpg

In this case, the Pliohippus is the transitional form from Merychippus to Equus.

Arranging fossils in a pattern to fit your beliefs is not science. As paleontologist Kurt Wise says, the evidence of fossil horses better fits the Biblical creation account. (We can also see how genetics does NOT support the 'just so' evolutionary story.)
 

6days

New member
The Barbarian said:
Mudskippers have modified fins to "walk" and even climb trees.
Actually, it would seem mudskippers were one of the created kinds on day 5 of the creation week.


Zoologist Philip Bell says mudskippers are excellent examples of design that supports the truth of scripture, and opposes evolutionary beliefs. "Mudskippers really are marvels of the mangrove swamps and mudflats. Whether we focus on their special eyes, take in their unique breathing or ponder their amusing fin-walking, these fish seem to have an ideal blend of characteristics for creatures that are at home in water and on land. Their various ‘departures’ from normal fish anatomy show an economy of design, with the complex parts of each body system all clearly specified (by instructions in the DNA) and finely tuned. Mudskippers are certainly no reason for creationists to have bad dreams! Those who choose to believe otherwise would appear to be willingly ignorant (2 Peter 3:5)."
 

iouae

Well-known member
Having found the right strata, paleontologists are pulling all sorts of half-fish/half-tetrapods out of the rocks, and it seems that there was a lot of selective pressure toward walking.

Give us the names of these land-walking tetrapods, or a reference please.

This is happening during Romer's gap - and its called a gap for a reason.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Having found the right strata, paleontologists are pulling all sorts of half-fish/half-tetrapods out of the rocks, and it seems that there was a lot of selective pressure toward walking.

Limbs in fish have evolved at least twice since. Mudskippers have modified fins to "walk" and even climb trees.

mudskipper-climbing-tree.jpeg

Mudskippers played no role in tetrapod evolution. See the following...

Mudskippers live in mangrove forests along the tropical coasts of the Indian and Pacific oceans. They inhabit mudflats and tolerate a wide range of salinities. Mudskippers belong to the Goby family – a comparatively recent group of fishes, which first appeared in the fossil record some 58-37 million years ago.

https://www.aquarium.co.za/species/entry/mudskippers

Tetrapod creation (not evolution) occurred 345 million years ago. After Romer's gap, land dwelling tetrapods appear in all their glory and diversity with nary a missing link, in the early Carboniferous.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Arranging fossils in a pattern to fit your beliefs is not science. As paleontologist Kurt Wise says, the evidence of fossil horses better fits the Biblical creation account. (We can also see how genetics does NOT support the 'just so' evolutionary story.)
These animals did not exist at the same time, they are separated by time. If they are transitional then it follows they are transitioning from the original created kind to something else God intended. If they are not transitioning that would mean that God didn't finish His creation in 6 days. He continued to create long after.
 

6days

New member
iouae said:
I would like to ask you creationists this question.

Are YOU willing to learn a little about the geologic column, if for no other reason than to better defeat the evolutionists arguments?

If you are asking if people want to understand your heretical beliefs about a God who tinkered, and had some failures, over the course of various creations.... Let's hope people say no.


If people want to understand the geological layers from the Biblical account, there are many good resources from Biblical creationist scientists including geologists. The rocks support God's Word.


http://www.icr.org/article/lateral-layers-geologic-strata/


http://www.icr.org/article/permian-extinction-good-science-bad-assumptions


http://creation.mobi/the-rapid-formation-of-granitic-rocks-more-evidence


https://answersingenesis.org/geology/


https://biblicalscienceinstitute.com/geology/creation-101-geology-part-1/
 
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