Evolution vs. intelligent design: The debate continues

bob b

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The following extended "letter to the editor" appeared today in our local paper. I thought it was pretty good and so decided to share it with readers of this forum.
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Evolution vs. intelligent design: The debate continues

POINT OF VIEW

LOUIS K. ARMENTROUT

James Wheetley's letter, "Religion has no place in public school science classes" (Voice, March 19), proves only that he, like most evolutionists, is ignorant of and has never read or evaluated intelligent design.

He falsely claims that intelligent design scientists are "trying to impose one's personal faith on a scientific discussion." The truth is intelligent design theory is used daily by scientists in the fields of forensics, archaeology and the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence, but no one is accusing these scientists of trying to impose their personal faith on a scientific discussion.

Origin science is a search for causes, and people with true scientific knowledge know that everything that comes to be has a cause -- either natural (sometimes called a secondary cause) or intelligent (sometimes called a primary cause). People such as the writer only accept true science when they think it proves their personal theologies, ideologies and philosophies, but when it proves ideas they despise they judge and condemn it.


Wheetley declares, "Science requires that an acceptable theory must either be proven with direct evidence, or at least have strong, logical and reasonable indications that it is likely." If this is true then macroevolution, a faith-based philosophical ideology, should not be considered science because it has never been proven with direct evidence nor does it have strong, logical and reasonable indications that it is likely. The truth is ...

1) Macroevolution has never been observed in the fossil record. Steven Gould, an avid evolution scientist, candidly admitted that the fossil record contains two features that are inconsistent with gradualism (Darwinistic evolution) (A) Stasis -- Most species appear in the fossil record much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is limited and directionless. And (B) Sudden appearance -- In any area, a species does not arise gradually. It appears all at once and fully formed. Both of these scientifically indisputable facts deny macroevolution. Clearly it is a scientific fact that nothing in the fossil record supports macroevolution.

2) Macroevolution has never been observed in the field. What is observed is adaptation within limits -- not molecule to man. There are numerous variations possible within a kind. Evolutionists and creationists all agree on this observable fact of life. It is the leap of faith extrapolation of "molecule to man" macroevolution where these scientists part company. From everything that is observed we clearly see that fish cannot become amphibians, amphibians cannot become reptiles, reptiles cannot become birds and apes cannot become human. Macroevolutionists who claim these kinds of changes are liars?

3) Mutations only scramble the message contained in the genetic code and after years of experimentation on thousands of generations of fruit flies Macroevolutionists found it impossible to create anything but a fruit fly.

4) Selective breeding does not prove macroevolution. It is not evolution. It is intelligent design. Breeders must carefully select and isolate to attain the desirable characteristics they seek. Once introduced back into the wild, things revert back to their natural state. There is an infinite gulf between what is observed (limited variations within a kind) and macroevolution (apes evolving into humans).

It takes intelligent design to create the kind of specified complexity contained in our genetic code. The information contained in our DNA is encyclopedic. It is organized into highly complex specific information. A mindless, accidental process that did not have us in mind could never had created a single simple cell in a trillion billion years. Evolutionists want us to believe that time, chance, mindless processes and non-living matter wrote the encyclopedic amount of information contained even in the simplest living cell and gave it life.

If Wheetley and other evolutionists want to take an infinite leap of faith and believe in the fairytale of macroevolutionism, it is their personal right to do so. But, they should not call it science. And, according to Wheetley's own policy, they should not be allowed to impose upon and indoctrinate students in public school science classes with their faith-based beliefs.
 

avatar382

New member
Mr. Armentrout should read that biology text again.

He is making the common creationist mistake of confusing the theory of evolution with the conjecture of abiogenesis, betraying a fundamental lack of understanding of that which he endeavors to refute.
 

ThePhy

New member
avatar382 said:
Mr. Armentrout should read that biology text again.

He is making the common creationist mistake of confusing the theory of evolution with the conjecture of abiogenesis, betraying a fundamental lack of understanding of that which he endeavors to refute.
That is one of bob b's favorite refuges. Look back over his posts on evolution for the past several months, and you will see where he has been told again and again that evolution can act on life no matter how it started. But bob b knows that abiogenesis is much less well understood than evolution, so he isn’t going to admit any separation. He routinely jams abiogenesis material in the midst of evolution arguments. He doesn’t have the Christian integrity to address the issue on its own merits.
 

Real Sorceror

New member
bob b said:
Wheetley declares, "Science requires that an acceptable theory must either be proven with direct evidence, or at least have strong, logical and reasonable indications that it is likely." If this is true then macroevolution, a faith-based philosophical ideology, should not be considered science because it has never been proven with direct evidence nor does it have strong, logical and reasonable indications that it is likely. The truth is ...
It has been proven with direct evidence. It has a strong, logical and reasonable indication that it is likely.
Macroevolution has never been observed in the fossil record.
The fossil record shows this quite well, however few creationists and ID's believe scientific dating processes to have accurate results, so the evidence is ignored.
(A) Stasis -- Most species appear in the fossil record much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is limited and directionless.
This is to be expected. If there is little enviromental change and little competition, a species has few reasons to quickly adapt and change. A species is likely to stay as it is for thousands of years.
(B) Sudden appearance -- In any area, a species does not arise gradually. It appears all at once and fully formed. Both of these scientifically indisputable facts deny macroevolution. Clearly it is a scientific fact that nothing in the fossil record supports macroevolution.
"Missing links" are very difficult to identify. At what point does an "advanced reptile" become a "primitive bird"? There are also huge gaps in the fossil record due to the fact that fossilization is a rare occurance that requires specific conditions. Then, of course, there is the matter of finding the fossil of a rat somewhere on the planet (with the ancient continent shifts, a vast amount of fossils are underwater as well.)
2) Macroevolution has never been observed in the field. What is observed is adaptation within limits -- not molecule to man.
That could take a billion years (or more). Have you been around for a billion years?
From everything that is observed we clearly see that fish cannot become amphibians, amphibians cannot become reptiles, reptiles cannot become birds and apes cannot become human. Macroevolutionists who claim these kinds of changes are liars?
How about mudskippers and certian catfish? They certianly have a knack for being "amphibious" fish. How about the fact that all amphibians start out as waterbreathers? There is an incredible amount of evidence in fossil records and bone structure that suggest a reptile to bird transition. Apes and humans have so many similarities, its not even funny; bone structure, genetic code, behavior. Look at me, I'm a liar!
3) Mutations only scramble the message contained in the genetic code and after years of experimentation on thousands of generations of fruit flies Macroevolutionists found it impossible to create anything but a fruit fly.
mmmmmh, fruit...........
4) Selective breeding does not prove macroevolution. It is not evolution. It is intelligent design. Breeders must carefully select and isolate to attain the desirable characteristics they seek. Once introduced back into the wild, things revert back to their natural state. There is an infinite gulf between what is observed (limited variations within a kind) and macroevolution (apes evolving into humans).
Breeders remove the random factors of natural evolution. They produce animals and plants that would not naturally occur. This appears very different, however, evolution's laws are still being used. Animals and plants put back into the wild will of course try and adapt to the new evironment. Adaptation is integral to evolution.
It takes intelligent design to create the kind of specified complexity contained in our genetic code. The information contained in our DNA is encyclopedic. It is organized into highly complex specific information. A mindless, accidental process that did not have us in mind could never had created a single simple cell in a trillion billion years. Evolutionists want us to believe that time, chance, mindless processes and non-living matter wrote the encyclopedic amount of information contained even in the simplest living cell and gave it life.
Some of them, maybe. I think G-d created evolution and set it in motion. Making DNA a natural occurance that changes with time, chance, and mindless processes is no problem for G-d. He woulnt even need a trillion billion years to make the first cell either.
If Wheetley and other evolutionists want to take an infinite leap of faith and believe in the fairytale of macroevolutionism, it is their personal right to do so.
I feel the same way about intelligent design and Christiens who take the Bible literally.
 

bob b

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Real Sorceror said:
:chuckle:

It is probably true that evolution is not yet done for, because the definition of "evolution" is quite plastic or incoherent..

It is probably more accurate to say that "Darwinism" or "NeoDarwinism" is on a trajectory toward oblivion, because "random mutations plus natural selection" is not an adequate mechanism to support the inflated claims that small changes can accumulate without limit to cause macroevolution.

The recent book, Evo Devo, is one indication of the ongoing trend away from NeoDarwinism.
 

Real Sorceror

New member
bob b said:
It is probably true that evolution is not yet done for, because the definition of "evolution" is quite plastic or incoherent..It is probably more accurate to say that "Darwinism" or "NeoDarwinism" is on a trajectory toward oblivion, because "random mutations plus natural selection" is not an adequate mechanism to support the inflated claims that small changes can accumulate without limit to cause macroevolution. The recent book, Evo Devo, is one indication of the ongoing trend away from NeoDarwinism.
Really? Well why dont you start off by answering my above statements, then I'll answer yours, and maybe we will get a proper debate going.
 

noguru

Well-known member
bob b said:
It is probably true that evolution is not yet done for, because the definition of "evolution" is quite plastic or incoherent..

It is probably more accurate to say that "Darwinism" or "NeoDarwinism" is on a trajectory toward oblivion, because "random mutations plus natural selection" is not an adequate mechanism to support the inflated claims that small changes can accumulate without limit to cause macroevolution.

The recent book, Evo Devo, is one indication of the ongoing trend away from NeoDarwinism.

What Bob fails to distinguish in his argument is that he is not really against evolution, but against natural philosophy when it is used to explain natural history and that explanation contradicts his interpretation of Genesis.

Unfortunately for Bob any movement away from "NeoDarwinism" in biology, will most likely not be a movement towards his model of young earth supernatural origins. Perhaps this is why he believes naturalism is so plastic. Bob would like the falsification of one or a few naturalistic explanations to mean the acceptance of supernatural explanations in the material sciences.
 

eisenreich

New member
bob b said:
1) Macroevolution has never been observed in the fossil record. Steven Gould, an avid evolution scientist, candidly admitted that the fossil record contains two features that are inconsistent with gradualism (Darwinistic evolution) (A) Stasis -- Most species appear in the fossil record much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is limited and directionless. And (B) Sudden appearance -- In any area, a species does not arise gradually. It appears all at once and fully formed. Both of these scientifically indisputable facts deny macroevolution. Clearly it is a scientific fact that nothing in the fossil record supports macroevolution.
Oops, this just creates one more gap..

Tiktaalik Makes Another Gap
Paleontologists have uncovered yet another specimen in the lineage leading to modern tetrapods, creating more gaps that will need to be filled. It's a Sisyphean job, working as an evolutionist.

This creature is called Tiktaalik roseae, and it was discovered in a project that was specifically launched to find a predicted intermediate form between a distinctly fish-like organism, Panderichthys, and the distinctly tetrapod-like organisms, Acanthostega and Ichthyostega. From the review article by Ahlberg and Clack, we get this summary of Tiktaalik's importance:

The analysis of the fossil clearly positions it as an intermediate: it has a more mobile skull/neck than a fish, and although its limbs are clearly fin-like, they also have features that presage the digits of tetrapods.

Fascinating article, the limbs to this beastie alone have a whole paper dedicated to them.

[Lots of nifty pictures and diagrams with the rest of the story]

MSNBC also covering the story, "Fossil shows how fish made the leap to land"
 
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lowerlevel

New member
sorry, I'm vary late on the evolution/intelligent design argument.... but I have been wanting to ask this question for some time. Those of you who know something about microbiology (more than just bio 1 & 2 in college- which is all I know) I would really like your opinion on Darwins Black Box. That has been one of the few books I have found to have actually admitable evidence in it against evolution. I'm sold on it- it has convinced me that macro-evolution at atleast some level, cannot exist. thoughts?
 

bob b

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eisenreich said:
Oops, this just creates one more gap..

Tiktaalik Makes Another Gap
Paleontologists have uncovered yet another specimen in the lineage leading to modern tetrapods, creating more gaps that will need to be filled. It's a Sisyphean job, working as an evolutionist.

This creature is called Tiktaalik roseae, and it was discovered in a project that was specifically launched to find a predicted intermediate form between a distinctly fish-like organism, Panderichthys, and the distinctly tetrapod-like organisms, Acanthostega and Ichthyostega. From the review article by Ahlberg and Clack, we get this summary of Tiktaalik's importance:

The analysis of the fossil clearly positions it as an intermediate: it has a more mobile skull/neck than a fish, and although its limbs are clearly fin-like, they also have features that presage the digits of tetrapods.

[Lots of nifty pictures and diagrams with the rest of the story]

If NeoDarwinism (small changes accumulate to generate macroevolution) is true then we whould be able to find trillions of intermediate forms in the fossil record instead of a few isolated cases that may or may not be genuine cases of transformations in process.

Carroll is on the right track with his EvoDevo idea, but if one buys into this it means the abandonment of neoDarwinism for a "better" idea that is supported by the actual evidence.
 

eisenreich

New member
lowerlevel said:
sorry, I'm vary late on the evolution/intelligent design argument.... but I have been wanting to ask this question for some time. Those of you who know something about microbiology (more than just bio 1 & 2 in college- which is all I know) I would really like your opinion on Darwins Black Box. That has been one of the few books I have found to have actually admitable evidence in it against evolution. I'm sold on it- it has convinced me that macro-evolution at atleast some level, cannot exist. thoughts?
I'm certainly less qualified than others on the forum, but from what I've heard, nearly every example Behe's cited as being "irreducibly complex" has been proven otherwise. He also thoroughly got his a** handed to him in Dover; read the transcript from the trial, it's hilarious.

If you're honestly looking for criticisms of Behe's work, these would be good places to start:
Irreducible Complexity and Michael Behe
A Biochemist's Response to "Darwin's Black Box"
Behe's Empty Box
 

lowerlevel

New member
eisenreich said:
I'm certainly less qualified than others on the forum, but from what I've heard, nearly every example Behe's cited as being "irreducibly complex" has been proven otherwise. He also thoroughly got his a** handed to him in Dover; read the transcript from the trial, it's hilarious.

If you're honestly looking for criticisms of Behe's work, these would be good places to start:
Irreducible Complexity and Michael Behe
A Biochemist's Response to "Darwin's Black Box"
Behe's Empty Box
in dover? whats the scoop here?
 

Johnny

New member
f NeoDarwinism (small changes accumulate to generate macroevolution) is true then we whould be able to find trillions of intermediate forms in the fossil record
That's making a mighty big assumption about fossilization frequency.
 

eisenreich

New member
bob b said:
If NeoDarwinism (small changes accumulate to generate macroevolution) is true then we whould be able to find trillions of intermediate forms in the fossil record instead of a few isolated cases that may or may not be genuine cases of transformations in process.
Did you even look at the page, it looks as though the remains were perfectly preserved. Did you read the stand-alone essay on how unique the limbs of Tiktaalik are? This is a perfect example of why evolution will never convince the staunch creationist. The problem is, these changes developed gradually, over time, the reason we don't have a "Intermediate-Species-R-Us" laying around is that nature can do a pretty good job of destroying animal remains.

I'm glad you dismissed this after spending less than 2 minutes glancing over the information..

bob b said:
Carroll is on the right track with his EvoDevo idea, but if one buys into this it means the abandonment of neoDarwinism for a "better" idea that is supported by the actual evidence.

"EvoDevo"
[Inigo Montoya] "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." [/Inigo Montoya]

Bob, we get it, you don't like evolution, but this new collaboration is not going to weaken the field of neo-Darwinism, if anything, it will only make it stronger because of the unique insights developmental biology can bring to the table. Your delusion that once EvoDevo catches on, "Darwinism" will fall to the wayside. Do you have any proof to back up this claim?

Also, while you're on the sidelines cheering E-V-O! D-E-V-O! You do realize that any discoveries made in the field will be at direct odds with creationism..? The leading researchers in the field of evolutionary developmental biology aren't simply going to shout, "Eureka, those Creationists were right all along!"
 

bob b

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eisenreich said:
Did you even look at the page, it looks as though the remains were perfectly preserved. Did you read the stand-alone essay on how unique the limbs of Tiktaalik are? This is a perfect example of why evolution will never convince the staunch creationist. The problem is, these changes developed gradually, over time, the reason we don't have a "Intermediate-Species-R-Us" laying around is that nature can do a pretty good job of destroying animal remains.

I'm glad you dismissed this after spending less than 2 minutes glancing over the information..



"EvoDevo"
[Inigo Montoya] "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." [/Inigo Montoya]

Bob, we get it, you don't like evolution, but this new collaboration is not going to weaken the field of neo-Darwinism, if anything, it will only make it stronger because of the unique insights developmental biology can bring to the table. Your delusion that once EvoDevo catches on, "Darwinism" will fall to the wayside. Do you have any proof to back up this claim?

Also, while you're on the sidelines cheering E-V-O! D-E-V-O! You do realize that any discoveries made in the field will be at direct odds with creationism..? The leading researchers in the field of evolutionary developmental biology aren't simply going to shout, "Eureka, those Creationists were right all along!"

I don't think you "get it". Evo Devo supports Intelligent Design.

BTW, since Evo Devo is a design feature it means that within major types it supports YEC, since it would not take that long from the landing of the Ark for the amazing diversity in the world to redevelop. Ditto for the variety of extinct forms found buried in the mud by the Flood. :wave:
 
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SUTG

New member
lowerlevel said:
sorry, I'm vary late on the evolution/intelligent design argument.... but I have been wanting to ask this question for some time. Those of you who know something about microbiology (more than just bio 1 & 2 in college- which is all I know) I would really like your opinion on Darwins Black Box. That has been one of the few books I have found to have actually admitable evidence in it against evolution. I'm sold on it- it has convinced me that macro-evolution at atleast some level, cannot exist. thoughts?

Hi lowerlevel,

I think that Bio 1 & 2 in college should have been enough to see what is wrong with alot of Behe's claims. You might want to also evaluate Behe's responses in the Dover Trial.
 
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