Evolution Debate

noguru

Well-known member
bob b said:
noguru,
Raah is often translated “evil” in a poetic sense, just as we would consider the destructive power of a hurricane to be a “calamity” and hence “evil” in that poetic way. A hangman creates “evil” or a “calamity” for the one who is hanged, but if done to bring justice is not “evil” in the sense of the hangman being evil. In the same way God is not evil for bringing justice to evildoers. Try substituting “calamity” (a synonym) for “evil” in your cited passages to get the correct sense of what is being said.

You have sinned against God by carelessly accusing Him of creating evil, probably by following the lead of someone who is not a strong believer.

This is exactly how I meant "evil". Why how did you mean it? And I did not say God was evil. I said that he created evil. There is a difference you know. Just because God created something does not mean he is defined by that thing. I hope you can see the difference.

And I am not following anyones lead here. I came to this conclusion on my own by reading the Bible. I have no idea what you are trying to say by your last sentence, but the sentiment seems entirely uncalled for.

In fact, I saw this same quote used by another "strong believing" fundamentalist on this site when he was supporting his own notion of God creating evil. Only in his post he meant it as sins that man commited due to Adams fall. And I knew this line did not support that use of it.
 
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noguru

Well-known member
CAUSASIAN said:

From the first link here is a couple of Quotes:

"The Real Ideological Root of Terrorism:
Darwinism and Materialism"

"ISLAM IS NOT THE SOURCE OF TERRORISM, BUT ITS SOLUTION"

So I guess these suicide bombers from 911 were fixated on darwinism and materialism when they crashed the planes into thier targets?

None were islamic? I guess they didn't use the Q'uran to justify thier actions, they were using "The Origin of Species"?
 

Lynn73

New member
tjguitar said:
And what about the interpretation of those who desperately attempt to make the evidence fit creation and those who ignore data that doesn't fit what they want?

It really doesn't bother me what some scientists say the evidence says or what it appears to say to some. I'm going to believe the Bible regardless. Men are fallible, God isn't. As has been pointed out, evolution is a theory, not proven fact.
 

Mr Jack

New member
Lynn73 said:
As has been pointed out, evolution is a theory, not proven fact.

No, it's a theory and a proven fact. Which you'd know if you weren't so determined to remain ignorant.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Mr Jack said:
No, it's a theory and a proven fact. Which you'd know if you weren't so determined to remain ignorant.

I think this is inaccurate. Science does not prove things in the same way the legal system does or like mathematical proofs. It is like the legal system in that the evidence can lead us to a level approaching absolute. In science nothing can be proven with absolute certainty, but we can have evidence that brings us to level beyond reasonable doubt.

With that being said, the evidence for the "theory" of evolution is close if not already at the level beyond reasonable doubt. The only people who seem to deny this are those like Lynn73 who don't want to know or understand the evidence. Or people like Bob B who would like to rewrite science to fit thier preconcieved ideas about the level figurative speech in Genesis.
 

koban

New member
noguru said:
I think this is inaccurate. Science does not prove things in the same way the legal system does or like mathematical proofs. It is like the legal system in that the evidence can lead us to a level approaching absolute. In science nothing can be proven with absolute certainty, but we can have evidence that brings us to level beyond reasonable doubt.

With that being said, the evidence for the "theory" of evolution is close if not already at the level beyond reasonable doubt. The only people who seem to deny this are those like Lynn73 who don't want to know or understand the evidence. Or people like Bob B who would like to rewrite science to fit thier preconcieved ideas about the level figurative speech in Genesis.


Gotta be careful here - aspects of the evolutionary theory have been proven to be "factual" - organisms have been shown to change over time, genetically linked differences that enhance survivablilty have been shown to be passed down to offspring, natural selection is a no-brainer, etc.
 

noguru

Well-known member
koban said:
Gotta be careful here - aspects of the evolutionary theory have been proven to be "factual" - organisms have been shown to change over time, genetically linked differences that enhance survivablilty have been shown to be passed down to offspring, natural selection is a no-brainer, etc.

I agree. I was speaking about the aspects that are still in contention. What Bob likes to call "paramecium to paramedic" evolution.
 

avatar382

New member
Jimmy West said:
Evolution is a THEORY. It has nothing to do with the accuracy or credibility of science. What makes it a theory is that it can not be proven beyond doubt.

To say that evolution is only a theory is like saying a car is only a Cadillac. The word "theory" is actually a complement in science terminology.
 

Mr Jack

New member
noguru said:
I think this is inaccurate. Science does not prove things in the same way the legal system does or like mathematical proofs. It is like the legal system in that the evidence can lead us to a level approaching absolute. In science nothing can be proven with absolute certainty, but we can have evidence that brings us to level beyond reasonable doubt.

That is so. I still maintain Evolution is a proven fact as much as anything in science is. I'd also say that scientific evidence is considerable more convincing that legal proof.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Mr Jack said:
That is so. I still maintain Evolution is a proven fact as much as anything in science is. I'd also say that scientific evidence is considerable more convincing that legal proof.

Well you may have a point there Mr. Jack.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Watch yourself there Mr. Jack. According to noguru anyone who talks about "proof" doesn't know anything about science. ;)

And as far as scientific evidence is concerned I agree with you that it is very convincing, for it was the scientific evidence which first convinced me that evolution (molecules to man) wasn't true!.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
noguru said:
He did it because I was innacurate in my understanding. And instead of having me be an embarassment to myself and others who accept the naturalistic model of science, he corrected my misunderstanding. He even admitted why he did it in that same post.

And it wasn't my view of SLoT that was confused. It was the interaction of other forces in nature and SLoT. I said that The First Law, Relativity, gravity... can reverse SLoT. That was an innacurate representation of what really happens. The truth is that your claim that SLoT is the ultimate force of nature and wins out over all other forces was also inaccurate. But you were unwilling to accept that.
You were doing so well until the last sentence. Actually, ThePhy agrees with my view, or more accurately I with his.
 

aharvey

New member
Lynn73 said:
Well, Kent Hovind says there are about 500 anti-Hovind sites so yeah one of their tactics is to attack the messenger when they don't like the message. Of course, I know there are Christians who disagree with Hovind but the point still is some evolutionists go after the one bringing the message.
Please note that, even if one accepts Hovind’s rather self-serving numbers, the fact that a site disagrees with Hovind’s writings does not mean they are attacking him and not his message!!! Just because I disagree with you for saying something does not mean I’m guilty of “attacking the messenger”! “Attacking the messenger” specifically refers to the following situation:

Person A makes statement B.
Person C criticizes some aspect of person A, says nothing about statement B, and then implies that statement B is incorrect because of what was said about the person who made it.

A more specific example:

Person A claims “bold statements do not make a claim true.”
Person B scornfully retorts that person A lost a debate on evolution to a radio talk show host.

Jimmy West said:
Evolution is a THEORY. It has nothing to do with the accuracy or credibility of science. What makes it a theory is that it can not be proven beyond doubt.
No, what makes evolution a scientific theory is that it provides an explanation for a broad range of observations and phenomena. The ability to be proven beyond doubt has nothing to do with it.

`Love. said:
Ok, it's God vs Darwin w/ a bunch of other idiots.

I can make my own theory and play with my evidence so it all fits, it's not that hard. That's why we don't run off on theories. :rolleyes:

See, there were these rabbits a million, trillion, billion years ago and they made little eggs (later became the start of Easter) and one of those eggs blew up and made Earth and the surrounding planets. Then a little flower appeared on the ground and the giant bunny came to pick it, and The Spirit of Creativity came out. The Spirit of Creativity with help from the bunny, made everything the way it is now.

PROVE ME WRONG!!!! :D

:kookoo:
From this I’m not sure which side of the argument you are on! Creationists seem to constantly forget that making up a story is not all there is to scientific inquiry. First, the hypothesis has to at least have a rational basis to it (which the above does not). Next, the hypothesis is tested by comparing its predictions to the available evidence, and generating new predictions to be tested. Creationists are singularly uninterested in this all-important step. They neither care how well evolutionary theory fares at explaining existing data or how well it generates new predictions, and supports these as well, and they get positively apoplectic at the prospect of themselves having to come up with a theory that explains or predicts anything nontrivial.
 

fool

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
bob b said:
The consistency with one another of the different books of the Bible proves that they had one ultimate author, the One who inpired them.
Or, it could mean that out of all the ancient writings on the topic only the ones that agreed with each other were allowed into the cannon.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
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THE “PERRY MASON” BURDEN OF PROOF:
HAVING TO FIND THE “REAL CULPRIT”

A key issue in any litigation is who bears the burden of proof and just what that burden requires. Particularly with respect to the theory of unintelligent evolution, scientists do not approach challenges to the theory with the impartiality and sincerity that the scientific method is supposed to require of them. Instead, as noted above, scientists approach such challenges with the assumption that the reigning unintelligent evolution theory prevails if there is any reasonable understanding of observed data that can make the data consistent with the theory. This is the same mental process as that employed by a lawyer who seeks to interpret all of the data as evidence that supports a predetermined conclusion. The burden is on the challenger.
But this problem is small compared to the fact that in science, unlike law, a significant new element is added to that burden. As noted above, the science establishment will not abandon a theory unless some scientist shows not only that certain of the data cannot reasonably be understood as being consistent with the theory, but also that the data supports some new theory. To recall Stephen Jay Gould, “theories are overthrown by rival theories,” not by demonstrations that the accepted theories ought never to have become accepted in the first place. This too, is part of the sociology of science. The history of science demonstrates that because of career dynamics, individuals attain prominence, prestige, and position by advocating and convincing others in the scientific establishment of the validity of new or existing theoretical explanations, data, and observations. As sociologist Robert K. Merton stated almost fifty years ago, “On every side, the scientist is reminded that it is his role to advance knowledge” and to “have made genuinely original contributions to the common stock of knowledge.”23
This burden of proof in science is far greater than the burden of proof in law. To analogize, the “reigning theory” is that advanced by the prosecution, while the defense counsel’s job is to rebut that theory. But in law, unlike science, the defense counsel need not offer an alternate theory to explain the facts that led to the prosecution. While Perry Mason always exposes the real killer in the process of acquitting his client, real defense lawyers almost never provide the real culprit in order to get their clients off the hook. In law, the practitioner can have a very successful career as defense counsel by simply proving that prosecution theories are unsupported by the data; he need not go on to prove alternative theories. The defense lawyer can quite happily admit complete ignorance as to who is the real culprit.
Not so in science. No scientist sees a career advantage in proclaiming not only that the scientific establishment is ignorant of the truth, but that he or she is also ignorant. Indeed, as science writer Stephen Mihm commented in a March 9, 2003, Washington Post Book World review of the book Rational Mysticism, the “scientific” community … is understandably reluctant to concede defeat (in general it’s a poor strategy for getting grants).” Thus, science thrusts upon challengers the burden of offering an alternative theory before it will abandon the prevailing theory, despite all mathematical, logical, and evidentiary challenges to that theory.
What this means is that not only is the burden of proof on challengers immeasurably higher in science than in law, but there are also distinct and powerful career disincentives for anyone to take on the “defense counsel” role of disproving the flawed paradigm. Why should anyone do it when there is no reward for success? The scientific establishment, by demanding that those who challenge its theories must produce workable alternatives, is demanding that the defense counsel either produce “the real culprit” or else the jury must accept the prosecution’s case. This imposes an unfair burden of proof that, if it were applied in law, would require every defense lawyer to be as effective as the fictional Perry Mason. No wonder reigning scientific paradigms are so rarely abandoned.

The above is from the same source which opened this thread.
 

Highline

New member
bob b said:
We prove it by the same scientific methodology which permits a judge and/or jury to determine that a literary work has been plagerized.

It is not credible to believe that close to a hundred books, written by different authors over a period of thousands of years happen to be perfectly consistent with one another by accident. It would have taken an enormous "conspiracy" to have fooled all historians of such things, particularly since many books of the Bible could be reconstructed if they suddenly disappeared because of the many quotations contained in different writings of other authors living in comparable time periods.

Of course it is credible that the books written by different authors would have similar themes and be consistent in other ways, because the authors were all part of the same oral society. They probably also communicated in letters that were not saved. The inconsisitencies are also explained. If your and my grandfathers witnessed an event 80 years ago and told their families about it, you and I might write the same story down. The stories would have consistencies and differences, just like the gospels. You can't say they are "perfectly consistent."
 

SteveG.

New member
The theory of evolution should not be considered a threat to Christian belief in particular or theistic/deistic faith in general. I don't see a necessary conflict between the Genesis account and the broad elements of the theory. Sure, there are interesting areas to debate, but the theory is sound and has withstood the test of time and intense scientific scrutiny. Again, I see no conflict between essential Christian faith and science in general or the theory of evolution in particular. Time to move on to more important stuff.
 

noguru

Well-known member
bob b said:
Watch yourself there Mr. Jack. According to noguru anyone who talks about "proof" doesn't know anything about science. ;)

And as far as scientific evidence is concerned I agree with you that it is very convincing, for it was the scientific evidence which first convinced me that evolution (molecules to man) wasn't true!.

I already addressed that Bob.

And his comments are quite different than yours. You claimed that the fossil record proves that evolution is false. I pointed out that the fossil record is just one of the many evidences that support it. I asked you to explain your conclusion that fossil record is evidence against evolution and evidence for YECism. You did not do this and your comments show a fundamental misunderstanding or at worst a misrepresentation regarding the evidence and the science around it. When I corrected Mr Jack he explained which aspects he felt were "proven" via human observation. Those aspect include only what you would term as micro-evolution or adaption. Your use of the term proven is just a bluff to make your case seem more robust. Mr Jack admitted that macro-evolution or as you would call it "bacteria to ballerina" evolution has not been directly observed. However, he did point out that the evidence we have makes that explanation a more robust argument than the arguments and evidence used in many court cases.

Perhaps you should go back and read the prior posts. :)
 

noguru

Well-known member
Yorzhik said:
You were doing so well until the last sentence. Actually, ThePhy agrees with my view, or more accurately I with his.

That's not how I remember it. In clearing up my misunderstanding of these issues ThePhy also nullified the thrust of your argument. Of course, you would never admit that. :bang:
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Highline said:
Of course it is credible that the books written by different authors would have similar themes and be consistent in other ways, because the authors were all part of the same oral society. They probably also communicated in letters that were not saved. The inconsisitencies are also explained. If your and my grandfathers witnessed an event 80 years ago and told their families about it, you and I might write the same story down. The stories would have consistencies and differences, just like the gospels. You can't say they are "perfectly consistent."

1. There is no evidence that the authors of the Old Testament were part of the same oral society.

2. If people wrote letters to one another then the society would not have been an oral one.

3. The books of the Old Testament were written over a period of at least a thousand years.

4. There is no evidence that the authors knew one another or had access to the parchments of the other author.

5. The stories do have different points of view (as do the Gospels, written far more recently).

6. The consistency of the ideas in these different books by different authors in different eras is unprecedented in the history of literature. Normally different cultures as well as different eras have differing ideas. The culture of today has different ideas from the culture of only 100 years ago.

However, I do realize that you have already made up your mind and will not change it regardless of the facts.

I write only because some readers may still have open minds, and thus may be able to make a judgment based on the facts of the matter.
 
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