Drug Dealing and the Bible

Nazaroo

New member
Today they found a man shot to death in Toronto on his porch.

He had no criminal record, but was known to police.

Turns out he was running a "grow-op" out of his house, growing thousands of dollars of Marijuana.

Its unknown who shot him, either rival gangs, or extortionists, or the special police 'hit squad'. It really doesn't matter. The point is that violence always follows illegal drugs, regardless of the kind. Its the nature of all illegal businesses and criminal activities, that you can't turn to the police for protection obviously, and so, the person naturally associates with other criminals.

Handguns seem to be as common as baseball bats when drugs are around. And both guilty and innocent people are constantly getting hurt or killed.

Injustice is also multiplied throughout the land when various illegal activities are just ignored or the law is not enforced with fairness and mercy.

The ideal all mankind should strive for is given in the example of the Christian community when it is obedient to Christ.

peace
Nazaroo
 

Nazaroo

New member
Insane Death Toll in Mexico from Drugs

Insane Death Toll in Mexico from Drugs

The latest figures are so high that they stagger the imagination, and seem surreal:

Now it has been catalogued that about 22,000 deaths have been attributed to the Drug trade in Mexico since 2006.

Thats right, not 2,000, and not 1976.

22,000 people, mostly innocents, have been killed since 2006, in relation to the drug dealing industry!

It absolutely must be stopped, and stopped by international cooperation, because the Mexican government and army cannot do so.

Just today, drug dealers crossed the border and brazenly murdered inside the US..

The major Mexican crop? Marijuana. the market? the USA.

Its what pot smoking is really all about. mass murder.


Nazaroo
 

Paulos

New member
22,000 people, mostly innocents, have been killed since 2006, in relation to the drug dealing industry!

It absolutely must be stopped, and stopped by international cooperation, because the Mexican government and army cannot do so.

Just today, drug dealers crossed the border and brazenly murdered inside the US..

The major Mexican crop? Marijuana. the market? the USA.

Its what pot smoking is really all about. mass murder.


Nazaroo

The only way to stop marijuana-related drug crime is to legalize and regulate it, the same way we do with other drugs like alcohol, tobacco, etc...
 

Nazaroo

New member
The only way to stop marijuana-related drug crime is to legalize and regulate it, the same way we do with other drugs like alcohol, tobacco, etc...

This is now an old argument, but I don't think the political will is there to follow up on this experiment.

While people in the US are still talking about legalization, countries that have tried it are now talking about making it illegal again, and regulating it more heavily, along with prostitution (such as the Netherland countries).

How would that magically end the reign of terror raging right now in Mexico?

With 20,000 dead and thousands more living in fear and terror, what will legalizing Marijuana in the USA do to break the drug-cartels and violent gangs ruling the countryside?

I see no solution in your pipe-dream...



peace
Nazaroo.
 

yeshuaslavejeff

New member
no solution is allowed politically. it is not even permitted to publicize much.
Population, United States

307,006,550 - Jul 2009
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Population Division
Disclaimer
Population, Mexico

106,350,434 - 2008
Source: World Bank, World Development Indicators
Disclaimer

..
...
...
not an exact match or comparison, but look at the huge difference -
in the u.s.a. out of 307,006,550 people let's say 1,000,000 are women.
and at least
1 out of 3 women die due to the drug dealers/pharmakea ...
that makes 330,000 women PLUS MEN AND CHILDREN....
while
in mexico ONLY 22,000 total, women men and children
have died due to the drug dealers (it is actually a lot higher, i know, but that's what they advertise)....

.
that's 333,333 per 307,000,000 roughly in the u.s.a. (only counting women)
vs
22,000 per 106,000,000 roughly counting all people
or
adjusting to 66,000 per 300,000,000 for the ratio
shows
the death rate due to drug lords/pharmakea in the usa is at least or seems 5 TIMES that of mexico....
sobering, eh?
.
.
p.s. the actual pain, suffering and death due to pharmakea is many many times what is advertised. it is SOOOO FARRRR from politically allowed you will never see it in popular print.
 

Paulos

New member
This is now an old argument, but I don't think the political will is there to follow up on this experiment.

Public opinion polls currently stand at 44% in favor of legalization. The political will may not be there quite yet, but the trend is moving in favor of legalization:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/123728/u.s.-support-legalizing-marijuana-reaches-new-high.aspx

I am sure that within the next 5-10 years, the majority will shift in favor of legalization.

How would that magically end the reign of terror raging right now in Mexico? With 20,000 dead and thousands more living in fear and terror, what will legalizing Marijuana in the USA do to break the drug-cartels and violent gangs ruling the countryside?

Legalizing marijuana would not end "the reign of terror raging right now in Mexico", but what it would do is take a huge bite out of their profits, and slashing their income would cut back on their ability to commit crime.

I see no solution in your pipe-dream...

My solution is not a pipe-dream, it is reality. Your solution is also not a pipe-dream, it is a nightmare. Your solution is to continue the failed policy that we have been practicing for decades. It has been said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different result. It's time to stop this insanity and legalize marijuana.

We've already been through this with the prohibition of alcohol. Prohibition was such an unmitigated disaster that alcohol was legalized again. We learned our lesson with alcohol, but for some reason, we insist on making the same mistake with marijuana even though by any standard of measure, marijuana is a less harmful substance to society than alcohol! The hypocrisy of it all...
 

Nazaroo

New member
Public opinion polls currently stand at 44% in favor of legalization. The political will may not be there quite yet, but the trend is moving in favor of legalization:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/123728/u.s.-support-legalizing-marijuana-reaches-new-high.aspx

I am sure that within the next 5-10 years, the majority will shift in favor of legalization.

This is no argument in favour of your policy.

In Sodom the populace became complacent, approving, and finally participants in whoredom, rape, sodomy, and murder.

The majority vote didn't make it ok with God.




Legalizing marijuana would not end "the reign of terror raging right now in Mexico", but what it would do is take a huge bite out of their profits, and slashing their income would cut back on their ability to commit crime.
This is the pipe-dream part.

The gangs are an entrenched cultural phenomenom. They will not be "starved" away by lack of funds. Mexico has always been in poverty, and full of violence.

There are solutions, like heavy policing, draconian gun laws and zero-tolerance, but they can't be implemented without money.



My solution is not a pipe-dream, it is reality.

Your solution is also not a pipe-dream, it is a nightmare. Your solution is to continue the failed policy that we have been practicing for decades. It has been said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different result. It's time to stop this insanity and legalize marijuana.
You are mistaken on two important fronts:

(1) No one will ever "legalize" marijuana. They didn't legalize drinking or gambling either. They REGULATED it, and now control it. The violence also is controlled, but not the social damages.

Gambling is now run for instance by the Government in Canada, or rather is regulated by it. But the mafias still run the now "legal" gambling casinos, and these gangs, both of natives, and the government are still gangs, pushing gambling and drinking. Your ideal "solution" has multiplied the organized crime problem by a thousand fold since the days of the Chicago 1920s.

(2) Regulating weed will not remove any problems, or "bankrupt" organized crime. It thrives stronger than ever, and is now more powerful and sophisticated than most govenments.


We've already been through this with the prohibition of alcohol. Prohibition was such an unmitigated disaster that alcohol was legalized again. We learned our lesson with alcohol, but for some reason, we insist on making the same mistake with marijuana even though by any standard of measure, marijuana is a less harmful substance to society than alcohol! The hypocrisy of it all...
(1) You need to re-read history. Prohibition was a success. People lived sober productive lives, and industry and the economy flourished under honesty and integrity.
What happened with gangs in the 1920s had to do with people refusing to stop their evil ways, and had to do with free access to "Tommy-guns" (another incredible catastrophe), and with the failure of the US army to step in and simply shut down the crooks. A 'zero-tolerance' policy was never implemented, but if it had been, we'd have a different world.
ALcohol was "legalized" (read: Regulated) when a group of mobsters in the government decided they wanted to make some money. There was no crisis that required the repeal of prohibition. It was the political will of a bunch of gangsters that caused the repeal of prohibition.


(2) What should have happened is that a president with balls should have called in the army and shot the gangsters dead.
Things would have been quiet in Chicago for another 100 years.

(3) Its not smoking pot that is the biggest danger, its organized crime. You have no solution at all for this. So don't pretend legalizing marijuana has any relevance to crime today.

(4) My solution would not have looked anything like historical "prohibition". Nor would I vote for current policies regarding law enforcement and drugs. So you don't know what you're talking about. But about my own solutions, I do know what I would want: I would take the army and round up all known drug dealers, and have them publicly executed on television. And we'd have peace from drug-dealing for a hundred years.

(5) You're right, there was some hypocrisy, and there's more of it now. I'd smash all liquor operations, and destroy all of it. I wouldn't have political or military leaders that used drugs, including alcohol. It would be a mandatory requirement for police, army, emergency services, and government to be Nazarites. No Nazarite, no job. And no hypocrisy.

peace
Nazaroo
 

DaSoji1

New member
Nice post OP...i always figured drug dealing was a sin, Just for the simple fact that u are selling your brother his own downfall & keeping him addicted to it...i didnt know it was actually in scripture though...I have ALOT more to read.
 

Paulos

New member
This is no argument in favour of your policy.

I didn't say that the trend in public opinion regarding marijuana legalization was an argument in favor of the policy. I simply stated it as a fact that the trend is heading in favor of legalization.

In Sodom the populace became complacent, approving, and finally participants in whoredom, rape, sodomy, and murder.

The majority vote didn't make it ok with God.

How can you slide from discussing marijuana policy directly into "whoredom, rape, sodomy, and murder"? Those subjects are mutually exclusive. I do not think that you are being rational with that comment.
 
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Paulos

New member
Interesting...

Interesting...

The Greek word translated as "wine" in the New Testament is pronounced oy-nos which means wine, not grape juice. We know that because the word is used where people are warned not to drink to excess and get drunk from it. No such warning would be necessary if it were grape juice:

"And be not drunk with wine [oy-nos], wherein is excess." (Ephesians 5:18 KJV)
"Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine [oy-nos]." (1 Timothy 3:8 KJV)​

The phrase "not given to much wine" implies that it is OK to drink a little wine, and in fact, in Paul told Timothy to "use a little wine":

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine [oy-nos] for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." (1 Timothy 5:23)​

I don't think that it would have been necessary for Paul to give Timothy permission to drink unfermented grape juice.

Source: http://www.keyway.ca/htm2004/20041126.htm
 

Nazaroo

New member
How can you slide from discussing marijuana policy directly into "whoredom, rape, sodomy, and murder"? Those subjects are mutually exclusive. I do not think that you are being rational with that comment.

Everybody knows that recreational drug use (alchohol and pot) are all about getting some chick's pants off and having sex, and for women its about having an excuse for fornication, as well as getting high.

Sex is big business, and the misdirected and unlawful indulgence in the sex-drive is what drives all this insanity and damage.

To pretend otherwise, is just denial.

Alcohol leads to whoredom, by lowering inhibitions and giving excuse. For example, ask any drunk driver why he did it: "I was drunk, man. sorry."

Why defend marijuana, or recreational drug use? Are you going to argue that it is "healthy", "necessary", "normal"?

How many monkeys, cows, horses, dogs, whales use recreational drugs?

peace
Nazaroo
 

Nazaroo

New member
The Greek word translated as "wine" in the New Testament is pronounced oy-nos which means wine, not grape juice. We know that because the word is used where people are warned not to drink to excess and get drunk from it. No such warning would be necessary if it were grape juice.

(1) You have misread the claim.

Words were not scientifically strictly defined in Jesus' day, there wasn't even a strict spelling convention. Just check the thousands of papyri from the period.

Because the word οινος "oinos" alone was ambiguous, and was used for both fermented and unfermented juices, only the context would determine what was meant. When the context adequately determines the meaning, no other adjectives are required. The examples you gave give a context, and make clear that in those cases an alcoholic fermented beverage was referenced.

In other cases, an adjective is required, namely "new wine" (neos oinos) = Fresh Juice, and "old wine" = fermented juice. When both types of oinos are referenced in the same sentence or discussion, the adjective is required, to distinguish them.

A good example of the necessity of adjectives and the double-meaning of οινος is in Jesus' discussion of both types of oinos found in Matthew 9:17, where "new wine" clearly means unfermented juice, and "old wine" means fermented juice.
"Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst (from fermentation!), the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved (from damage due to fermentation!)."
Everyone knows, fermentation naturally stops, because the yeast dies from alcohol poisoning (just like people do). New juice placed in a used wineskin will ferment because of the presence of yeast. In a new clean container, without yeast contamination, it will not ferment and burst the skin.

Also, "old wine" (fully fermented juice) will not burst skins, since yeast cannot grow in a solution of 6-10% alcohol.



(2) You have made a logical non-sequiter.

Just because a word can mean "fermented wine", does not mean it always does.


(3) You have misunderstood Paul's advice to Timothy.



and in fact, in Paul told Timothy to "use a little wine":
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine [oy-nos] for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." (1 Timothy 5:23)​
I don't think that it would have been necessary for Paul to give Timothy permission to drink unfermented grape juice.
Paul wasn't giving Timothy permission to drink alcoholic beverages. He was prescribing a treatment for a medical condition to an individual, with whom he had personal intimate knowledge.

Everyone knows you can't indiscriminately take drug prescriptions meant for someone else, especially without knowing the exact nature of their illness. Alcohol is a dangerous drug, as strong as many common depressants and narcotics.

But your logic again here begs the question. For Paul's suggestion could indeed indicate a prior policy or instruction was in place, namely the 20 previous times Paul and others had publicly instructed Christians to "Be sober!".

What you think is irrelevant. We must take examples like this as indications of what the real ideological and religious practice and belief really was, not what you wish it was.

peace
Nazaroo
 
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Nazaroo

New member
Why would it have been necessary for Paul to give Timothy permission to drink unfermented grape juice?

He wasn't. You have misread the passage. Paul is prescribing medicine for an illness, not giving "permission" to Timothy, an adult, to indulge.
 

Paulos

New member
He wasn't. You have misread the passage. Paul is prescribing medicine for an illness, not giving "permission" to Timothy, an adult, to indulge.

I didn't use the word "indulge", and I don't know where you got the idea that I did. Paul specifically states, "a little wine". "A little" of something does not exactly qualify as an "indulgence".

Do you agree that Paul was referring to fermented (alcoholic) wine in 1 Timothy 5:23?
 

Paulos

New member
Its what pot smoking is really all about. mass murder.

Nonsense. Most people who smoke pot want nothing whatsoever to do with mass murder or any other sort of crime or violence. In certain parts of the country it is legal to possess small amounts of marijuana and to grow a limited amount of plants for personal use. A growing list of states are also legalizing marijuana for medical use. These people want nothing to do with crime of any kind, let alone mass murder!

Everybody knows that recreational drug use (alchohol and pot) are all about getting some chick's pants off and having sex, and for women its about having an excuse for fornication, as well as getting high.

What you suggest here is certainly true with many people, but it is not true with many other people. You make an awful lot of incredibly negative blanket generalizations and assumptions about other peoples' motivations.

Why defend marijuana, or recreational drug use? Are you going to argue that it is "healthy", "necessary", "normal"?

What is really healthy, necessary, and normal in a civil society is allowing people the freedom to make their own decisions in that regard. You are free to abstain if you so choose. Other people are (or should be) free to partake within regulations, if they so choose. It's called freedom of choice.

How many monkeys, cows, horses, dogs, whales use recreational drugs?

Haven't you ever seen a cat go into an intoxicated stupor over catnip?

Take a look:

http://www.33mag.com/fr/magazine/g33k/drunken-animals-fermented-fruit-fiends-to-beer-bears
 

Nazaroo

New member
I didn't use the word "indulge", and I don't know where you got the idea that I did. Paul specifically states, "a little wine". "A little" of something does not exactly qualify as an "indulgence".

Do you agree that Paul was referring to fermented (alcoholic) wine in 1 Timothy 5:23?


No. It refers to grape juice. Paul specifically states "oinos", not modern alcoholic wines at 10-20% alcohol by volume, something unknown in Jesus' day.

Paul was recommending that Timothy relax his Nazarite vows in order to treat his stomach, probably an ulcer, now known to be caused by bacteria (from unclean foods). Paul and most other early (Jewish) Christians continued to take Nazarite vows (Numbers 6) in support of the temple and Jewish practice (see Acts).

Anyone familiar with ulcers knows that alcohol is devastating and sometimes fatal to those with serious ulcers. We know Timothy's illness was serious, because Paul was so concerned.

If Paul had prescribed alcohol for Timothy's ulcer, it would have been a horrific mistake. If you think he did, then you should concede it was bad advice, and not use this scripture to recommend alcohol, but rather to dis-recommend Paul.

peace
Nazaroo
 

Paulos

New member
A good example of the necessity of adjectives and the double-meaning of οινος is in Jesus' discussion of both types of oinos found in Matthew 9:17, where "new wine" clearly means unfermented juice, and "old wine" means fermented juice.
"Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst (from fermentation!), the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved (from damage due to fermentation!)."

"New wine" did not mean unfermented grape juice. Wine is wine, whether it is new or aged. The only difference between new wine and aged wine in the biblical context was its strength, but new wine was still capable of getting people drunk if they drank enough of it, as the book of Acts states:

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. (Acts 2:13)​

The fact that "new wine" was said to cause drunkenness is proof that it too was fermented to some degree.

Furthermore, new wine was not poured into new wineskins in order to keep the new wine from fermenting and bursting the skin, as you claim. New wine was put into new wineskins because new wineskins were elastic and would stretch, hence new wine was placed into new wineskins in order to accommodate the fermentation process, not to prevent it from happening.

Everyone knows, fermentation naturally stops, because the yeast dies from alcohol poisoning (just like people do). New juice placed in a used wineskin will ferment because of the presence of yeast. In a new clean container, without yeast contamination, it will not ferment and burst the skin.

You seem to have a lack of understanding of both scripture and the science behind fermentation. The Israelites, like all ancient peoples, did not understand the process of fermentation. They simply pressed the grapes, allowing the juice to run off into cisterns. They allowed the juice to settle and eventually they stored the juice in bottles. Fermentation occurred naturally. They did not know that it was caused by yeast, and they did not add yeast to grape juice in order to cause it to ferment. The fermentation process was not understood until the late 19th century, when Louis Pasteur observed the fermentation process under a microscope.

Naturally-occuring amounts of yeast are invisible to the naked eye. (In fact, it is common for household dust to contain yeast spores.) It just so happens that there is enough invisible, naturally occurring yeast on the skins of grapes to cause fermentation. The moment the grape is crushed, fermentation begins as the juice comes in contact with the natural "wild" yeasts on the grape skin. The yeasts convert the sugar in the grape juice to alcohol and release carbon dioxide and water. Fermentation preserves the juice, allowing it to be stored for long periods without spoiling. (Reference)

Keep in mind that the Israelites did not have refrigeration, pasteurization, or vacuum-sealed containers with which to store fresh grape juice for long periods of time. Grapes are perishable. Their skins are thin. Lacking refrigeration, they rot quickly once harvested in a hot climate. Grapes were not an item that could be easily transported, at least not until they were turned into wine or raisins. Farmers did the sensible thing: they crushed their grapes immediately after harvest and the juice naturally fermented into wine, which is what preserved it. In other words, fermentation was the only process by which the Israelites (and all other ancient peoples) could store the liquid for extended periods of time without spoilage.

Jesus drew a metaphor that every Israelite farmer understood: they knew that wineskins expand when new wine is poured in. They didn’t understand that the expansion was from carbon dioxide (a byproduct of fermentation), but they knew that a new wineskin was flexible and could expand. An old wineskin was already stretched, so pouring in new wine caused it to burst as the juice fermented. Jesus clearly knew a thing or two about wine.

You may be wondering how the Israelites knew about leavening bread if they didn't know about yeast. After all, didn't they have to add yeast to their bread in order to make it rise, or withhold yeast in order to make unleavened bread? The answer is no, they didn't use yeast--well, not directly, so far as they were aware. What they used was something called "leavening". And what was leavening? Leavening was nothing more than a small lump of aged dough. That's it! You see, as dough is left out to age, the fermentation process kicks in through the naturally occurring yeasts contained in the dough. A small lump of aged dough was enough to mix into a large batch of fresh dough and cause it to rise when heated.

Interestingly, no leavened foods are allowed at Passover, though alcoholic wine is. The ancient Jews had no understanding that leavened bread and wine are linked through yeasts. The difference is that leavening must be added to bread for it to rise; for wine, natural yeasts are already on the grape skins, and these start fermenting when the grape is crushed.

If you wish to insist that Jesus' wine at the Last Supper was somehow unfermented, consider this: the grape harvest was six months earlier. There was no possible way for grape juice to be available at Passover without fermentation getting in the way, as fresh grape juice won’t last that long. (Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch didn’t invent the pasteurization process to create “unfermented wine” until 1869. That’s when Welch’s Grape Juice was born, and he did it specifically so Protestants could have grape juice at communion.) Jesus’s wine was fermented wine.

Also, "old wine" (fully fermented juice) will not burst skins, since yeast cannot grow in a solution of 6-10% alcohol.

Your claim that yeast "cannot grow in a solution of 6-10% alcohol" is inaccurate. Yeasts can thrive and reproduce in a concentration of up to 14% alcohol by volume. It is only in the recent decades of our lifetime that strains of yeast have been developed that can reproduce in solutions of up to 25% alcohol by volume.

[Oinos] refers to grape juice. Paul specifically states "oinos", not modern alcoholic wines at 10-20% alcohol by volume, something unknown in Jesus' day.

As I've already noted, yeasts function normally in up to 14% alcohol by volume, so "old" wine with up to 14% alcohol would have been the norm even in Jesus' day.

Besides which, in Ephesians 5:18 Paul stated, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess". Referring to wine in the Greek, Paul used the word "oinos". It is hardly possible for one to get drunk on grape juice.

[In 1 Timothy 5:23,] Paul was recommending that Timothy relax his Nazarite vows in order to treat his stomach, probably an ulcer, now known to be caused by bacteria (from unclean foods).

Anyone familiar with ulcers knows that alcohol is devastating and sometimes fatal to those with serious ulcers. We know Timothy's illness was serious, because Paul was so concerned.

If Paul had prescribed alcohol for Timothy's ulcer, it would have been a horrific mistake. If you think he did, then you should concede it was bad advice, and not use this scripture to recommend alcohol, but rather to dis-recommend Paul.

Here's a link to an article on WebMD which states that moderate wine consumption is beneficial for combating ulcers:

"Moderate Wine, Beer Drinking May Kill Ulcer Bug"
http://www.webmd.com/heartburn-gerd/news/20021230/with-beer-wine-stomachs-fine

We don't know for certain the nature of Timothy's health problem. It may well have been an ulcer, or it may have been something else. Whatever Timothy's problem was, it is likely that moderate amounts of fermented wine would have been beneficial to Timothy's condition. The fact is that numerous health benefits can be derived from moderate wine (and beer) consumption. For example, drinking moderate amounts of wine can help maintain heart health, reduce the likelihood of cancer, and even treat sore throats as well as diarrhea/dysentery. Additionally, a glass of red wine with a meal aids digestion. The list of scientifically proven health benefits from moderate wine consumption goes on.

Paul and most other early (Jewish) Christians continued to take Nazarite vows (Numbers 6) in support of the temple and Jewish practice (see Acts).

Total alcohol prohibitionists focus on the scriptures that condemn or show the results of wrong alcohol use, but neglect those scriptures that show there can be a proper moderate use. If someone today wants to claim that believers do not have the right to drink alcohol on the analogy of a Nazarite vow, they also should say that believers ought not to eat grapes or raisins, nor should they drink grape juice. However, even those who took the Nazarite vow were free to drink wine once their vow was complete:

Numbers 6:20
And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

While it is true that drunkenness is condemned everywhere in scripture, there is no law in scripture forbidding the general population to produce, exchange, sell, or consume wine--even strong wine. Aside from specific circumstances (e.g., the Nazarite vow), the consumption of fermented wine was normally permissible and even encouraged, so long as the consumption was moderate. For example, Deuteronomy 14:26 implies that it is a good thing to drink "wine" and "strong drink" to the Lord:

“And you may spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household” (NASB).​

Also, Isaiah 25:6 refers to "wines on the lees":

And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.​

I will refer you to the following link to see for yourself what "wine on the lees" means:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lees_(fermentation)

Strong wine was even poured out as a drink offering to the Lord:

Numbers 28:7
...in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.​

Judges 9:13 references wine as "cheering God and man".

In describing the requirements for deacons, Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 3:8
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine...​

See also, Titus 2:3
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine...​

So the problem is not with moderate wine consumption, which is perfectly fine from the biblical and scientific perspective. The problem is only with drinking to excess.

_________

Additional References:

"The Bible and Alcohol", by Daniel B. Wallace;
http://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol

"Wine in Ancient Israel", By Garrett Peck; http://www.prohibitionhangover.com/israelwine.html
 

Nazaroo

New member
There's no end to wine industry propaganda. And why should we expect it? Drugs including wine are a multi-billion dollar industry.

You seem to hold "authorities" in high regard. I prefer truth.
(wikipedia? Get serious.)

---------------------------------------------

(1) To show just how little you know about the very Holy Scriptures you are quoting, we only need refer to your first quotation:

These men are full of new wine. (Acts)
Not only is this a sloppy idiomatic translation, upheld by boozers, the underlying Greek isn't οινος ("oinos") at all!

Its gleukos (a sweet fruit syrup made from boiling juice), sometimes mixed with alcohol in mixed drinks.

Since you aren't going to admit you meant to deliberately mislead English readers, we'll just have to mark you down as ignorant of original Greek NT.

-----------------------------------
(2) You only muddy the waters with your discussion of "old" and "new" oinos, after admitting that the basic mechanism is indeed fermentation and gas production.

You spend paragraphs quibbling about 10% versus 14% or even 20% (who cares?). The point remains the same. Then and now, fermentation naturally stops when the yeast dies in its own excrement. The sediment in your wine is yeast poop. Enjoy.

------------------------------------
(3) You found a link that says alcohol may (or may not) kill bacteria. Wow. Who knew? They've only been using alcohol to swab wounds for a hundred years.

You still haven't addressed any of my points about Paul's private instructions to Timothy, the main one being it isn't a guideline for recreational drinking, but a medical prescription, which you have admitted by posting this link on medical tripe.

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(4) You ramble on about Nazarites (I am one), but you miss the whole point.

If a man were 'holy' without the Nazarite vow, then it would be superfluous, misleading, and downright wrong.

The Nazarite vow is a vow of holiness, meaning those who drink wine are NOT holy. For instance, even a high priest could not enter the temple unless he was sober (and holy).

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(5) You offer Daniel Wallace as a parting reference, but we wouldn't even use his work as toilet-paper in the outhouse.

For a critique of his dishonesty, try this link:
http://adultera.awardspace.com/DUMB/Wallass.html

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If thats all you got, maybe you ought to get a bottle of wine ...(Proverbs 31:6)

peace
Nazaroo
 

Paulos

New member
Isaiah 25:6 KJV
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Numbers 6:20 KJV
And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

Numbers 28:7 KJV
...in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

Deuteronomy 14:26 KJV
And you may spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
 
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