Does Holy Scripture with no outside knowledge = proven saved + determinism

[thborn]

The present state of the Bible is that there are multiple translations, and some of them have been translated in a way that makes determinism seem like an unassailable fact, and others as though it is folly. Should you invest some time to study it in Greek with an interlinear Bible and a lexicon, you'll find that the whole thing hinges on how a handful of words are rendered.

I guess all I'm really trying to say is... even the Bible itself has been colored by the preconceptions of the translators where it comes to determinism (or Calvinism, or TULIP, or pre-destination, or whichever-word-you-prefer.)

So it would depend on which Bible you read. With no preconceptions and a different Bible, you very well might come to a different conclusion.

Jarrod

Thanks, I do feel that I need to give time to prayerfully examining different translations, especially after your input.

 

[thborn]

See you aren't even speaking words from God but rather from Calvinists. You say God's determination as if it is spoken of like that in the Bible.

I'm just striving to be accepting of the meaning of Romans 9 and 10 and other scriptures. But I know that I haven't studied Scripture as much as some others and there are verses that give a slightly different flavor that I haven't gotten to commenting on or more deeply considering.

We don't love God unless we obey Him. Obeying God is love. God says He loves those who love Him by obeying Him. Those are the people He saves.

I agree.

 

[oatmeal]

Those are your words that you twisted in the discussion in a dishonest way.


Peter is explaining that the plan for salvation was made before the creation of anything, and who the apostles would be.




That is another scripture about the plain for salvation was made before the world was made.



That is about the JEWS whom God foreknew, for God had a relationship with them before the Gentiles.

Paul is letting the Gentiles know that those Jews God foreknew---He also made the plan for them to be saved too, even if it didn't look like it.



It is you who has no knowledge or wisdom. God gives knowledge and wisdom to those who obey Jesus.

Start doing that and see what happens.

Thanks for offering your opinions and private interpretation

 

[God's Truth]

I'm just striving to be accepting of the meaning of Romans 9 and 10 and other scriptures. But I know that I haven't studied Scripture as much as some others and there are verses that give a slightly different flavor that I haven't gotten to commenting on or more deeply considering.

Do yourself right by staying away from trying to get understanding by studying from Calvnists.

Just keep reading and studying the scriptures.

Live your life being obedient to Christ and strive to know His Truth.

After I was saved, there were people who tried to make me believe in Calvinism. This was a strange thing I was hearing and I wanted to know if it was truth. I barely ate or drank or slept for a couple of weeks while I studied intently.

God showed me His Truth and Calvinism is false.

Mark 4:24 "Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you--and even more.


Put a lot into your studies, to know God better is worth it.

I agree.

 

[God's Truth]

Thanks for offering your opinions and private interpretation

Be stubborn then.

 

[thborn]

Do yourself right by staying away from trying to get understanding by studying from Calvnists.

Just keep reading and studying the scriptures.

But that's why I study what Romans 9 says about God having mercy on whom he wishes and hardening whom he wishes. And, while I beleive the literal truth of that, at the same time, Paul here brings our attention another facet of the issue of God in Romans 10:21 "But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." The word determinism may not appear here, but I use it as a shorthand to understand as I understand the relationship between His sovereignty, His salvation, and and His Beautiful truth. God, I believe, used the dialog between Calvinists and others to draw my attention to things such as this.

Live your life being obedient to Christ and strive to know His Truth.

After I was saved, there were people who tried to make me believe in Calvinism. This was a strange thing I was hearing and I wanted to know if it was truth. I barely ate or drank or slept for a couple of weeks while I studied intently.

I'm glad you care about God's words and are attentive, but I keep coming across Scripture that supports determinism. I don't really want to, but I do. And going to my Catholic Bible from the days when I was a Catholic doesn't change that...so it doesn't seem to be an issue of translation.

 

[God's Truth]

But that's why I study what Romans 9 says about God having mercy on whom he wishes and hardening whom he wishes.

That is only about Pharaoh and faithless Jews.
God doesn't go around hardening people so that they don't believe in Him.
In fact, just the fact that God had need to harden people proves that Calvinism is false, for Calvinists claim no one can can believe in Him unless He causes them to supernaturally. So why would God need to harden someone if they couldn't believe anyway until He made them believe?

Those same Jews that God hardened and helped in Jesus getting crucified, after they repented they were saved.
Acts 2
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

And, while I beleive the literal truth of that, at the same time, Paul here brings our attention another facet of the issue of God in Romans 10:21 "But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." The word determinism may not appear here, but I use it as a shorthand to understand as I understand the relationship between His sovereignty, His salvation, and and His Beautiful truth. God, I believe, used the dialog between Calvinists and others to draw my attention to things such as this.

If you believe Calvinism is truth, then you are not near God's Truth. Let's talk about the scriptures that Calvinists use and I'll show you what the truth is.

Do you really think that God held His hand out to people He made not be able to believe and obey Him? Does that really make sense to you?

The Bible says God wants the unbelieving sinners to come to Him to get saved.

I'm glad you care about God's words and are attentive,

Well thank you for that.

but I keep coming across Scripture that supports determinism. I don't really want to, but I do. And going to my Catholic Bible from the days when I was a Catholic doesn't change that...so it doesn't seem to be an issue of translation.

It isn't really about which translation a person uses You were taught wrong things about the scriptures by Calvinists. After Jesus saved me, I would read many different writings and not even know what the author's denomination was. After awhile I had more knowledge and can spot the false teachings and from which denomination.

 

[thborn]

That is only about Pharaoh and faithless Jews.
God doesn't go around hardening people so that they don't believe in Him.
In fact, just the fact that God had need to harden people proves that Calvinism is false, for Calvinists claim no one can can believe in Him unless He causes them to supernaturally. So why would God need to harden someone if they couldn't believe anyway until He made them believe?

Hmmm…well, the hardening that came upon Pharaoh relates to his refusal to let the Israelites free, not whether he is able to believe in Christ. But when it comes to humanity in general, maybe Paul is saying that hardening refers how they were created and predestined by God, who searches hearts and knows everything about them and their future. Also, maybe hardening, at least sometimes, is about God withdrawing his grace or self from a person rather than making them do something. God hates sin, so I don’t think He becomes involved in evil, thought he did create everything that became evil.

I suppose I can see the viewpoint that the one crying out in Romans 9:19 Then why does God still blame us? is perhaps someone born into and caught up in their national and cultural identity to the point that they refuse faith, and so the hardening is more about groups than individuals. Maybe the “it” in 9:16 It does not depend on man’s desire or mercy refers more to geographic and national situations of people than their life choices. But I also think I might be jumping through a hoops a bit with that line of thinking. 9:11 Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad in order that God’s purpose in election might stand … it is natural to connect election here with the elect, used throughout the new testament to refer to believers in Christ. 9:23-24: What if he did this to make his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? The simplest and perhaps most gracious interpretation is that this type of predestination towards wrath or mercy applies to all people, though I guess it doesn’t strictly say that here. At any rate, Paul intends for this message to be relevant to believers and nonbelievers after Christ’s resurrection.

Those same Jews that God hardened and helped in Jesus getting crucified, after they repented they were saved.

Yes, in the quote you gave from Acts it says three thousand were saved in a day. Like Paul, I wish for as many of them as possible to be called and predestined and justified and persevere and be glorified.

If you believe Calvinism is truth, then you are not near God's Truth. Let's talk about the scriptures that Calvinists use and I'll show you what the truth is.

Which type of Calvinism? How do you define it? For me…and I might not have explained myself very well…it’s not about Calvinism or any -ism, but about how good one thinks humans are. And about how much glory and credit one gives God. And where goodness comes from. It comes from God, right? Pagans love their families, as Jesus said. But goodness comes from God. So any work or act, including believing and obeying, is from God. Romans 3:9-20 says no human is righteous without Christ (I’m sure we agree on that). In terms of believing and doing good, a person’s will and desire is very limited…

Phillipians 2:21 For everyone looks out for his own interests, not those of Jesus Christ.

…but not so God’s grace and power and love.

John 5:21 Jesus says “the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.” (Yes, he does go on to say that those who do good will received life and those who do evil will be condemned, and this is true.)

Philippians:
1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion on the day of Christ Jesus.
1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him
2:12-13 continue to work out your salvation in fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

1 Corinthians:
1:2 called to be holy
1:8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
3:7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.
15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
15:57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

2 Corinthians:
1:9 not rely on ourselves but on God
1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
1:24 it is by faith you stand firm
2:14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him.
3:5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

2 Timothy:
1: 8-10 But join me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
1: 12 I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

Ephesians:
1:4-6 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the one he loves.
2:3-9 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 Thessalonians:
1:4-5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our Gospel came to you not simply with words, but with power, and the Holy Spirit and deep conviction.
3:12 May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else
3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
5: 23-24 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of your Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

2 Thessalonians:
2:10 They perish because they refuse to love the truth and be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2:13-14 because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our Gospel
3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts into God’s love and Christ’s perseverance.

I am wary of notions of human autonomy and so must test everything. Most modern people live in a culture of individualism, but actually Christ is the Believer's life.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you will also appear with him in glory.

However…

2 Corinthians 6:1 As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.

Looking at this verse, I suppose grace is not given only to the saved… If God’s grace, meaning not saving grace but a form of God’s influence, is required for anyone to do anything good, than all receive some grace…but perhaps they are never justified or truly reconciled to God in Christ.

Another verse that may not seem to fit with a deterministic view (and, yes, there are many more):

Colossians 1:22-23 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the Gospel.

But, you could say that he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand (Romans 14:4).

The Bible says God wants the unbelieving sinners to come to Him to get saved.

Yes. Those that do, do so because they are chosen or called. It’s a bit of a mystery how it all fits together. Scripture uses both kinds of language…that about people turning to God and that about God working such acts in people. Some find it a bit of a mystery why sin should exist, why many should be denied eternal life, and why many should suffer in this life. God hates evil and wants goodness in people, but through the existence of suffering and evil in people he is also creating a people for himself who love him and are obedient to him.

It isn't really about which translation a person uses You were taught wrong things about the scriptures by Calvinists. After Jesus saved me, I would read many different writings and not even know what the author's denomination was. After awhile I had more knowledge and can spot the false teachings and from which denomination.

I hope you will be encouraged and that God will further enrich you. I am also eager to learn how you view these Scriptures and to what degree you have the truth. Some of our disagreement is just a difference of emphasis or inclusion/exclusion.

 

[God's Truth]

Hmmm…well, the hardening that came upon Pharaoh relates to his refusal to let the Israelites free, not whether he is able to believe in Christ.

That is not true, because the hardening is spoken of in the New Testament.

But when it comes to humanity in general, maybe Paul is saying that hardening refers how they were created and predestined by God, who searches hearts and knows everything about them and their future.

Of course God knows ahead of time who will chose Him---another reason that He doesn’t need to harden or enable anyone which contradict each other and is from Calvinism.

 

[God's Truth]

I suppose I can see the viewpoint that the one crying out in Romans 9:19 Then why does God still blame us? is perhaps someone born into and caught up in their national and cultural identity to the point that they refuse faith, and so the hardening is more about groups than individuals. Maybe the “it” in 9:16 It does not depend on man’s desire or mercy refers more to geographic and national situations of people than their life choices. But I also think I might be jumping through a hoops a bit with that line of thinking.

The Jews who were hardened, they were only hardened while Jesus walked the earth.

Jesus came first for the Jews who already belonged to God by faith.

God cut off the rest of the Jews and hardened them while Jesus walked the earth because Jesus was coming to make a new covenant based on faith, and those who already belonged to God by faith now had to go through Jesus.

Jesus said when he is crucified, then all could come to him to be saved, even the cut off Jews who were bound to the same place as the Gentiles.


Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

John 18:9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me."

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

 

[God's Truth]

9:11 Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad in order that God’s purpose in election might stand … it is natural to connect election here with the elect, used throughout the new testament to refer to believers in Christ. 9:23-24: What if he did this to make his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? The simplest and perhaps most gracious interpretation is that this type of predestination towards wrath or mercy applies to all people, though I guess it doesn’t strictly say that here. At any rate, Paul intends for this message to be relevant to believers and nonbelievers after Christ’s resurrection.

That scripture is about God allowing Gentiles to be saved too, even though they didn’t come into the covenant with God before and obey Him.

Esau didn’t have to trade his inheritance for a bowl of soup.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, in the quote you gave from Acts it says three thousand were saved in a day. Like Paul, I wish for as many of them as possible to be called and predestined and justified and persevere and be glorified.

Why would you say predestined? Predestination doesn’t mean cut off and hardened and then allowed to repent later and given faith.
You need to save yourself from your false Calvinistic beliefs.

Which type of Calvinism?

All of it is false.

How do you define it? For me…and I might not have explained myself very well…it’s not about Calvinism or any -ism, but about how good one thinks humans are.

That is just more of your Calvinistic teachings. You are a Calvinist.
Calvinists use that as a talking point, and then they say no human is good enough.
That goes against what God says in the Bible.
God says there are those who do right and have good hearts.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


Luke 8:15 “… these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”


Matthew 12:35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.



The Bible never ever says what Calvinism says.

And about how much glory and credit one gives God.

You are not giving God any respect when you go against what He says.

And where goodness comes from. It comes from God, right? Pagans love their families, as Jesus said. But goodness comes from God. So any work or act, including believing and obeying, is from God. Romans 3:9-20 says no human is righteous without Christ (I’m sure we agree on that). In terms of believing and doing good, a person’s will and desire is very limited…

God says good happens to the wicked and that they even love their own, and how those who want to get saved have to do more than that.
Don’t forget all are condemned until they get saved, and that Gentiles and Samaritans were dogs and pigs, yet if they obey Jesus they will be as sheep and children of God's and get saved.

 

[God's Truth]

I hope you will be encouraged and that God will further enrich you. I am also eager to learn how you view these Scriptures and to what degree you have the truth. Some of our disagreement is just a difference of emphasis or inclusion/exclusion.

Calvinism is false and I hope you listen to what I have to say about the scriptures, for Jesus did bless me greatly with His Truth.

 

[God's Truth]

So any work or act, including believing and obeying, is from God. Romans 3:9-20 says no human is righteous without Christ (I’m sure we agree on that). In terms of believing and doing good, a person’s will and desire is very limited…

Paul is quoting Psalm14:1-3; 53:1-3; and Ecclesiastes 7:20.

Ecclesiastes SAYS there is not a RIGHTEOUS man who does what is right and NEVER SINS. Ecclesiastes tells us that there ARE RIGHTEOUS men but none who NEVER sin. Paul is explaining that the Jews were sinners just like the Gentiles. Nowhere in these passages or scriptures anywhere does it say none can believe on their own. In this same Ecclesiastes 7, Solomon tells us about wise men, righteous men, and about a man who pleases God. Solomon also tells us that he found one upright man among a thousand. The Bible tells us that there are people who want to do right.

Phillipians 2:21 For everyone looks out for his own interests, not those of Jesus Christ.

That scripture then tells of a couple of men who do put other people's interest first, Timothy and Epaphroditus

John 5:21 Jesus says “the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.” (Yes, he does go on to say that those who do good will received life and those who do evil will be condemned, and this is true.)

Those Jesus is pleased to give salvation doesn't say one thing about Jesus making them pleasing first.

Philippians:
1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion on the day of Christ Jesus.
1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him

Calvinism falsely uses Philippians 1:29 to support Calvinism. Calvinists forget that unbelieving Jews were hardened. And it was GRANTED to the Gentiles to believe in Jesus. There is not special granting to those who do not even want God, as Calvinists say.

1 Corinthians:
1:2 called to be holy
1:8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
3:7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.
15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
15:57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!


2 Corinthians:
1:9 not rely on ourselves but on God
1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
1:24 it is by faith you stand firm
2:14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him.
3:5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

That is to those who keep believing and obeying.

2 Timothy:
1: 8-10 But join me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
1: 12 I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

Ephesians:
1:4-6 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the one he loves.
2:3-9 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

That is about the plain being made before the creation of anything.

Read who in Ephesians 2: where you posted, "Like the rest, were were by nature objects of wrath."
God had mercy on the Gentiles and didn't make them get circumcised in the flesh before He would save them. They were uncircumcised enemies. They didn't get circumcised and come into the covenant with God.

B]1 Thessalonians:[/B]
1:4-5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our Gospel came to you not simply with words, but with power, and the Holy Spirit and deep conviction.
3:12 May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else
3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
5: 23-24 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of your Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

2 Thessalonians:
2:10 They perish because they refuse to love the truth and be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2:13-14 because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our Gospel
3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts into God’s love and Christ’s perseverance.

2 Thessalonians explains 1 Thessalonians.
Some people do not want to give up sin and live to please God.
Those who obey God get strengthened in Him.

I am wary of notions of human autonomy and so must test everything. Most modern people live in a culture of individualism, but actually Christ is the Believer's life.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you will also appear with him in glory.

However…

2 Corinthians 6:1 As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.

Looking at this verse, I suppose grace is not given only to the saved… If God’s grace, meaning not saving grace but a form of God’s influence, is required for anyone to do anything good, than all receive some grace…but perhaps they are never justified or truly reconciled to God in Christ.

See how you tried to make God's words fit Calvinism.

Some people believe and then fall away---they have believed in vain.

There are many other scriptures that explain how people do that.

Another verse that may not seem to fit with a deterministic view (and, yes, there are many more):

Colossians 1:22-23 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the Gospel.

But, you could say that he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand (Romans 14:4).

...but still, the person has to obey.

Yes. Those that do, do so because they are chosen or called.

The Bible says all are called, but not all answer the call.

Nowhere do the scriptures say they don't answer because God didn't let them.


"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Isaiah 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations–


Does it make sense to you that God would plead so hard with people that He made not able to answer?

It’s a bit of a mystery how it all fits together. Scripture uses both kinds of language…that about people turning to God and that about God working such acts in people. Some find it a bit of a mystery why sin should exist, why many should be denied eternal life, and why many should suffer in this life. God hates evil and wants goodness in people, but through the existence of suffering and evil in people he is also creating a people for himself who love him and are obedient to him.

Calvinism is false.

Nowhere anywhere in the scriptures does it say God makes someone believe and obey against their will.

Nowhere anywhere do the scriptures say God saves those who don't believe and obey Him.

I hope you will be encouraged and that God will further enrich you. I am also eager to learn how you view these Scriptures and to what degree you have the truth. Some of our disagreement is just a difference of emphasis or inclusion/exclusion.

Please keep discussing this with me, there is so much more to tell you, so many more scriptures.

 

[thborn]

Why would you say predestined? Predestination doesn’t mean cut off and hardened and then allowed to repent later and given faith.
You need to save yourself from your false Calvinistic beliefs.

What does it mean to save oneself, scripturally? Scripture does use that phrase at least once, in 1 or 2 Timothy I believe, but is this about the moment of determination of eternal salvation? And, whether or not it means that, God is very much involved, right?
Do you believe that there are people who start all over and come to Scripture with an open heart and without any preconceptions and still go wrong?
This could be, since there Scripture says there are people who are not in the light, not children of God, who are perishing and who don't understand the truth.
Do you believe that this would describe myself, if I don't follow the teachings you are advancing?

 

[God's Truth]

What does it mean to save oneself, scripturally?

Scripture does use that phrase at least once, in 1 or 2 Timothy I believe, but is this about the moment of determination of eternal salvation? And, whether or not it means that, God is very much involved, right?

Of course we have something to do with getting saved and even others getting saved.

Read what Paul says in Corinthians and what Peter says about a spouse helping the other spouse get saved

1 Corinthians 7:16 is about a husband saving his wife, or a wife saving her husband.

1 Peter 3:1 is about winning over---saving the husband with your behavior.


Read this scripture where in Romans Paul shows how he is trying to get his own people saved by enticing them with jealousy.

Romans 11:14 is about Paul somehow arousing envy in his own people to save some of them.



Read what Paul says in Romans about how we are dependent on people helping us get saved by their sharing the gospel message with us.


Romans 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 14

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.



Of course, we can have something to do with others getting saved, and even ourselves getting saved.

Do you believe that there are people who start all over and come to Scripture with an open heart and without any preconceptions and still go wrong?

They could still go wrong, if they don't stay within the scriptures.
The scriptures say not to go beyond what is written.
We have to check out everything that we are told.
With the measure we use it will be measured to us and more.
So if you don't put much into knowing the truth about something you are told, then you won't get much in return.


Mark 4:24 "Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you--and even more.

Acts 17:11 Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.



We have to be careful that Satan doesn't ensnare us to teach falseness, because false teachings interfere with others being saved.


1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.


2 Timothy 2:26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

This could be, since there Scripture says there are people who are not in the light, not children of God, who are perishing and who don't understand the truth.
Do you believe that this would describe myself, if I don't follow the teachings you are advancing?

What a humble question to ask. Such a heart is one God desires. Are you ready to give up all family, friends, and false teachings for God's Truth?

 

[thborn]

Of course we have something to do with getting saved and even others getting saved.

But in all the examples of this in Scripture, how we do know to what degree or in what way God is doing this through us and through other people? And is it perhaps presumptuous to seek to know? For who can know the mind of God? Are you sure you do not emphasize what humans do a little too much and go beyond Scripture on this?

I trust Scripture and those who talk about grace and faith and obedience and love and election and perseverence and being a new creation in Christ Jesus.

And if I can see something of the gentle and chlldlike and of Jesus in them. But that can only happen if you are acquainted with a person for a long time of course.

 

[God's Truth]

But in all the examples of this in Scripture, how we do know to what degree or in what way

A major way as I have shown you from the scriptures.

God is doing this through us and through other people? And is it perhaps presumptuous to seek to know? For who can know the mind of God?

Those who obey have the mind of Christ and those who obey know God.

Are you sure you do not emphasize what humans do a little too much and go beyond Scripture on this?

I gave you scripture for everything I said, and what do you do, you ask to what degree we have in helping others get saved.

You also claim it is going beyond scripture when it is scripture that I gave you!

How can you say something so bad?

I gave you scripture that plainly says we have to hear the gospel and you still ask to what degree we play in others getting saved.

I trust Scripture and those who talk about grace and faith and obedience and love and election and perseverence and being a new creation in Christ Jesus.

You are steeped in falseness like all the Calvinists.

You use words from them and pretend it it from God, or just don't know, either way, you are entrapped.

You can never tell God you didn't know or that no one ever told you.

 

[thborn]

A major way as I have shown you from the scriptures.



Those who obey have the mind of Christ and those who obey know God.



I gave you scripture for everything I said, and what do you do, you ask to what degree we have in helping others get saved.

You also claim it is going beyond scripture when it is scripture that I gave you!

How can you say something so bad?

I gave you scripture that plainly says we have to hear the gospel and you still ask to what degree we play in others getting saved.



You are steeped in falseness like all the Calvinists.

You use words from them and pretend it it from God, or just don't know, either way, you are entrapped.

You can never tell God you didn't know or that no one ever told you.

Can you go a bit more into Romans 8:29-30 and Romans 9?

I've left a lot behind in order to try to look at Scripture without preconceptions and no outside ideas or nothing beyond Scripture. I don't believe I have the perfect understanding yet, but I think I have a humble one. In just months I've had to come to terms with a lot of stuff in Romans that the Roman Catholic Church hasn't gone into for me. I think there's difficult stuff here for earnest enquirers but at the same time a it does not have to be burdensome and I think there is a way to understand it that might not be the simplest understanding in Scripture but allows us to see God as a loving God who is overjoyed at broken people who come to him.

Sincere believers should study together and grow in sanctification, and some who do not yet truly believe will be saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Psalm 51 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. If you don't believe I'm at that point let's look at some of these scriptures more. And I welcome any rebukes.