Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

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popsthebuilder

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Rosenritter said:
Wait, let's back up a step there. Since we are confirming agreement and disagreement, where is it written that God's will cannot be influenced by man?

1) If this were true, prayer would be unnecessary, and pointless.
2) This would contradict Christ's own words of how he admonishes us to pray. "Ask, and it shall be given" and his parable of the unjust judge.
3) How would such an interpretation possibly fit with how Jesus responded to the woman of Canaan in Matthew 15:28? He denied her multiple times, except when she persisted. He stated his will, she asked again, and again, and his will changed.
4) Explain why Israel was not wiped out when God said he would destroy them, but Moses spoke to God and asked him to stay his anger?
5) Explain why Nineveh was not destroyed. Forty days, and the city will be destroyed, they were told.

Jonah 4:2 KJV
(2) And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

Truth is that the actions of men do change God's will. It is written, with many examples.
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You answered your own question with Jonah 4:2.


And to be clear; I was speaking of the will of GOD as it pertains to man ultimately and finally. GOD is longsuffering and merciful so HIM exhibiting such isn't equal to man changing the will of GOD. I didn't say prayer was ineffectual or that man isn't free, but that man cannot affect change on the will of GOD. That doesn't mean GOD doesn't hear or answer prayer at all. Don't limit the capacities of GOD. We aren't t talking about three sided squares, we are talking about the will of GOD which would correlate with the nature of GOD. What makes you think that GOD answering prayer is man changing GOD's will? Seems to me that it has always been the will of GOD for man to pray, so GOD answering prayer is not GOD changing his mind or will. To assume such is to limit the intellect of of GOD, removing omniscience from IT'S nature.

Peace
Robert Pate said:
There is a lot of teaching on this Forum that God is something other than holy. A holy God always keeps his promises and his words are like gold. We can rest, trust and believe in what he says and does.
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popsthebuilder

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Doesn’t the Bible say that God never changes?

Yes, the Bible records God as saying: “I am Jehovah; I do not change.” (Malachi 3:6) Similarly, the Bible says that God “does not vary or change like the shifting shadows.” (James 1:17) This, however, does not*contradict what the Bible says*about God changing his mind. God is unchangeable in that his personality and standards of love and justice never alter. (Deuteronomy 32:4;1*John 4:8) Still, he can give different instructions to people at different times. For instance, God gave opposite instructions to King*David for fighting two consecutive battles, yet both methods succeeded.—2*Samuel 5:18-25.



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Robert Pate

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popsthebuilder said:
Doesn’t the Bible say that God never changes?

Yes, the Bible records God as saying: “I am Jehovah; I do not change.” (Malachi 3:6) Similarly, the Bible says that God “does not vary or change like the shifting shadows.” (James 1:17) This, however, does not*contradict what the Bible says*about God changing his mind. God is unchangeable in that his personality and standards of love and justice never alter. (Deuteronomy 32:4;1*John 4:8) Still, he can give different instructions to people at different times. For instance, God gave opposite instructions to King*David for fighting two consecutive battles, yet both methods succeeded.—2*Samuel 5:18-25.



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"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose" Romans 8:28.

His purpose is that we preach and teach his Gospel.
 
Crucible

Crucible

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Numbers 23:19-20
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
Behold, I received a command to bless: he has blessed, and I cannot revoke it.

Right there is an explicit detail of God's immutable sovereignty.
 
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Robert Pate

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Crucible said:
Numbers 23:19-20
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
Behold, I received a command to bless: he has blessed, and I cannot revoke it.

Right there is an explicit detail of God's immutable sovereignty.
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Of course God is sovereign.

But he is only sovereign within his holy, just, merciful, righteous nature. God cannot and will not sin against himself or his created beings. He always does what is right. You will not be able to accuse God of doing wrong in the judgment.
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Robert Pate said:
Of course God is sovereign.

But he is only sovereign within his holy, just, merciful, righteous nature. God cannot and will not sin against himself or his created beings. He always does what is right. You will not be able to accuse God of doing wrong in the judgment.
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Pateism makes God unjust !
 
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Robert Pate

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beloved57 said:
Pateism makes God unjust !
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No, you make God unjust when you teach that he predestinates people to heaven and to hell.

You make Jesus unjust when you teach that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world.

In order to please your false God (Calvinism) you blaspheme the true God of the Bible and his Son Jesus Christ.

You will not escape the consequences of your blasphemies in the judgment.
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Robert Pate said:
No, you make God unjust when you teach that he predestinates people to heaven and to hell.

You make Jesus unjust when you teach that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world.

In order to please your false God (Calvinism) you blaspheme the true God of the Bible and his Son Jesus Christ.

You will not escape the consequences of your blasphemies in the judgment.
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You make God unjust by condemning the righteous.
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Robert Pate said:
You are not the righteous. You are still in your sins.

Your false Calvinist God will not let you come to Christ so that you can be saved.
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You make God unjust by teaching that He condemns the righteous.You make God do that which is a abomination

Prov 17:15

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
 
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Robert Pate

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beloved57 said:
You make God unjust by teaching that He condemns the righteous.You make God do that which is a abomination

Prov 17:15

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
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You are not righteous because you are not "In Christ." You are still in your sins, because you have never come to Christ as a repentant sinner to be saved by him.

Your Calvinist God does not believe in Jesus, he believes in John Calvin.
 
Crucible

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Robert Pate said:
Before Jesus was crucified people in the Old Testament were saved and justified by faith in God's promise of a savior, Romans 4:3. They believed God.
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The concept of a messiah did not come until Isaiah, and salvation wasn't a concept until Jesus.

It might come off as odd to you, but most people in Abraham's time simply accepted life on Earth and that's that- the idea of an afterlife was no more necessary for them than electricity to a 12th century squire.
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Robert Pate said:
You are not righteous because you are not "In Christ." You are still in your sins, because you have never come to Christ as a repentant sinner to be saved by him.

Your Calvinist God does not believe in Jesus, he believes in John Calvin.
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You seem to be comfortable with the fact that you teach that God commits abomination!
 
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Robert Pate

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Crucible said:
The concept of a messiah did not come until Isaiah, and salvation wasn't a concept until Jesus.

It might come off as odd to you, but most people in Abraham's time simply accepted life on Earth and that's that- the idea of an afterlife was no more necessary for them than electricity to a 12th century squire.
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All through the Old Testament there was a thread that God would provide them with a savior. The promise was first made to Adam, Genesis 3:15. "The just shall live by faith." Faith in God's promise of a savior.
 
Nang

Nang

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Crucible said:
The concept of a messiah did not come until Isaiah, and salvation wasn't a concept until Jesus.

It might come off as odd to you, but most people in Abraham's time simply accepted life on Earth and that's that- the idea of an afterlife was no more necessary for them than electricity to a 12th century squire.
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I have to disagree with you regarding this . . .

God promised a "Seed" to Eve that would crush the devil in Genesis 3:15. I believe this was the first revelation of the new Covenant of Grace; eventually fulfilled in and by Jesus Christ. Hebrews 2:14-17

All the old testament saints gifted with faith (e.g. many listed in Hebrews Chapter 11) believed and looked for the fulfillment of this (new) covenant of the savior who would be born of woman.
 
Crucible

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Nang said:
I have to disagree with you regarding this . . .

God promised a "Seed" to Eve that would crush the devil in Genesis 3:15. I believe this was the first revelation of the new Covenant of Grace; eventually fulfilled in and by Jesus Christ. Hebrews 2:14-17

All the old testament saints gifted with faith (e.g. many listed in Hebrews Chapter 11) believed and looked for the fulfillment of this (new) covenant of the savior who would be born of woman.
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I think yall are conflating merit/forgiveness with eternal salvation.
 
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