Does Calvinism limit God?

[Rolf Ernst]

POTATO HEAD--I know that you don't take serious much of the Scripture, but nevertheless, the BIBLE says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I, the LORD, do all these things." Isa.45:6,7
"If a trumpet is blown in the city, will not the people be afraid? If there is evil in a city will not the LORD have done it?" Amos 3:6
I am sorry if you are incapable of understanding that God takes vengeance against the wicked, bringing troubles upon them according to His holy justice, but THAT IS SCRIPTURE. I guess you have been sitting in front of a "preacher" who is under control of the board of deacons and they have warnes him, "only preach velvet tongued, sticky sweet nothings. Tell unbelievers that they are NOT
underf the law, which is an administration of WRATH. Talk to every God hater as if they are under the covenant of grace even though they are Christ rejecters and GRACE comes only through that Christ whom they reject. If I have wrongly addressed this to you, please address your comments to those whom you address by name.
Will you Arminians NEVER learn that when wicked men do wickedly they may be instruments in the hands of God to execute vengeance against evil doers and that He does so in accord with His holy justice, and that no matter how you try you cannot fasten upon Him the guilt of those who act with EVIL motives?? What has blinded your mind that you cannot comprehend this?????????????????????

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Tye Porter

No.
Open Theism does.
Putting man's will over God's limits God.

Tye... have you ever considered following the debate?

How about reading the posts and the responses we make?

Wouldn't it be more profitable for you to argue against an accurate version of what we think and say instead of the staw man version you create and then knock down?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Mr Potato Head
God does not do evil, and bringing about evil would be doing evil. The Bible does not say God creates evil (except how some translations translate what he is referring to as his just judgment on sinners... see Isaiah 45:7). God is completely opposed to evil. God saw his creation and it was very good. Then evil came into it not from God and it fell. God hates evil. It grieves him. Claiming otherwise is to contradict the Living God.

:first: POTD

 

[wholearmor]

Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly
Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event?

If not, may every prisoner be set free and may God be locked up in their place.

 

[1Way]

Jobeth - You said

But just as you said, God will surely bring good out of a seemingly awful occurrence.

Considering the context of this discussion, such a comment is quite inaccurate. Nothing good comes from something bad, good and bad are opposites for a good reason. My humility towards self correction is a good RESPONSE, to a bad thing, the bad thing did not produce the good, the good response produced the good.

As to

You are so sweet. That's why I put up with you. But I won't put up with your being cynical and bitter. I am very sorry you are overworked and in pain and under pressure from all sides. But I mean it, Dwayne. You know better than to take your anger and frustration out on other people.

Please refer to me by my handle on this public forum. You just attacked one of the main reasons I appreciate you. You always defended me in truth like when others tried to falsely accuse me, and now you do the opposite and even make a false charge against me. I have not treated you or anyone else here as you said. I know how to escalate godly opposition to an escalating offense. Ignorant mistakes are easily corrected, but if someone does not stand corrected by the truth, then a defiant rebelliousness represents a clear case for escalation.

Imitate you? God or you? God is known for saying that, but good leaders are good examples for others to follow. Generally speaking, women do not lead men. But, I'll gladly grant you that you are exemplary in displaying a meek and peaceful spirit, which is one of the things that God deeply appreciates. But people can and do mistake being kinder than God as such kind meekness, but you can not be nicer than God, some people try to be, but they only hurt themselves and others. God does not appreciate a meek humble acting blasphemers, meekness is not an end all quality, neither is love. You can be a meek and loving God hater, so lets not forget about the entire scope of scripture about what God appreciates and what He most certainly does not.

He also appreciates those who deal uprightly with the truth and accords themselves with the doctrine of godliness, and putting good for evil is the opposite of pleasing God.

How about instead of ignoring the majority of what I said, and attacking me, deal with what I have said especially because of the bible teachings I quote which serve to condemn you and those like you. God is the one I am trusting in all this, I think you place more trust in errant men than you do God, that is the only way one can ever say the vial things you say about God. God is good and righteous, but to you, He is what caused everything evil and bad, yet God hates those things and you seem to appreciate them and worse, attribute them to God.

I'm not bitter because I stand up for a righteous understanding of God, I'm loving because God's word taught me about His goodness and righteousness when I was a little tike. If you searched the truth out about God, and somewhat because of your own kind personality, I would hope that you could understand that God really is good and righteous and just. Remember, righteous means doing NO wrong, just means opposing wickedness, good means the opposite of bad/sin/evil. You can't reinvent God, He is good, He is righteous, He is just, and He is faithful and true! Well, you can try in a vain effort to reinvent God, but thank goodness that God refutes your view to no end.

You are my foe concerning "the truth" and "the way" and "the doctrine of godliness" to name a few, because you oppose every one of them by attributing evil to God. But you've known that all along. And if you dare suggest that God does evil because the bible plainly says so, I will have no fellowship with you because we both know how putrefied that notion is and how I demonstrated for example that "ra" (=Hebrew for bad/ruin/evil/calamity etc.) is a contextually modified "bad". It can be moral bad like evil/wrongdoing, or amoral bad like destruction or calamity or ruin, etc. I even showed you God's use of that same exact word where God used it speaking of an animal's blemish or discoloration, which was something that simply did not "look good", something that looked "bad", to prove that God's use of the word "ra" does not necessarily mean "moral evil". God does amoral ra, so God doing ra is better understood as God doing some sort of (righteous) punishment, not God doing moral evil. Or did you forget how God's word refutes your view? Or is your memory getting as bad as mine is?

 

[Mr Potato Head]

Originally posted by jobeth
Mr Potato Head

Regarding your post #71 of this thread:

I don't know who you were quoting but it was not me.

Can you please edit your post to credit those quotes to the correct person?

Sorry bout that. :doh:

 

[Mr Potato Head]

POTATO HEAD--I know that you don't take serious much of the Scripture, but nevertheless, the BIBLE says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I, the LORD, do all these things." Isa.45:6,7
"If a trumpet is blown in the city, will not the people be afraid? If there is evil in a city will not the LORD have done it?" Amos 3:6
I am sorry if you are incapable of understanding that God takes vengeance against the wicked, bringing troubles upon them according to His holy justice, but THAT IS SCRIPTURE. I guess you have been sitting in front of a "preacher" who is under control of the board of deacons and they have warnes him, "only preach velvet tongued, sticky sweet nothings. Tell unbelievers that they are NOT
underf the law, which is an administration of WRATH. Talk to every God hater as if they are under the covenant of grace even though they are Christ rejecters and GRACE comes only through that Christ whom they reject. If I have wrongly addressed this to you, please address your comments to those whom you address by name.
Will you Arminians NEVER learn that when wicked men do wickedly they may be instruments in the hands of God to execute vengeance against evil doers and that He does so in accord with His holy justice, and that no matter how you try you cannot fasten upon Him the guilt of those who act with EVIL motives?? What has blinded your mind that you cannot comprehend this?????????????????????

Yes.... I know.... God's JUDGMENT is exactly what I was talking about. But if you think abortion is God's judgment against the United States your view of God is pretty dumb. At least if he's gonna judge us he might as well punish US and not the unborn babies. But maybe that's just me.

Secondly, Arminians don't deny God's judgment. And neither do I (seeing as I'm not an Arminian). We just don't attribute the evil acts of people to the God who died for us.

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

You too, Poly? You ALSO charge God with evil because of the evil MEN do??

Unfortunately I used to until I stopped taking other people's word for what was truth and actually searched out the bible for myself. I regret each and every day I ever thought that God predestined everything, including all the evil that would ever be committed by man. I'm now free to no end knowing that bad things do not come from God.

"The wages of sin is death" and God has the RIGHT to require that price of anyone at any stage of their life even if it be by the hands of wicked HUMANS WHO ARE THE ONES WHO KILL NOT AS A FORM OF JUSTICE, BUT SIMPLY OUT OF SELF-INTEREST AND IRRESPONSIBILITY?

Do you even hear yourself? God has the right to require death of men and it's ok and He sees that this is done by humans who have no right to do this. Wow, that is out there! :kookoo:

I guess you must be horrified that He at one time wiped the earth clean of all humanity except for the eight in the ark. How many infants MR. POLY, do you think died at THAT TIME??????????GIVE ME AN ANSWER--HOW MANY????????????

No doubt, many. And no, I'm not horrified at this in the least. I see a merciful God who, instead of letting man continue in generations of such a downward spiral that they could not know Him, He wiped them out.

You unbelieving Arminians...

Please! Arminians are way to Calvinistic for me. Try Open-theist.

have sat before sugar- tongued, ear-ticking preachers for so long that you can feel nothing at the thought of God's just wrath. You run around with syrupy sweet bumper stickers on the back of your car that say, SMIILLLEEE, God luvs YOU!

I'd rather have my pinky cut off than have a bumper sticker that says that or anything else that says that. :vomit:

And you would say that without shame to those whom He hates---
OOOooohh! FORGIVE ME!!! I forgot that you people have torn Psalm 11:5 and 5:11 out of your sticky sweet Bibles.

Psalm 11:5 "The Lord tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Nope, I'm never tearing that one out. You obviously know little about me. I'll be the first one to tell you that the Lord hates the wicked. But how does this prove that God is ok with babies being murdered and that He actually wants this because it's "His right" to give them life and then take it right back from them? Maybe you should read it again. He HATES wickedness, not ordains it.

WAKE UP. IT IS CHRIST WHO WILL TREAD THE "WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD."

Chill dude. Newsflash! Just because you choose to yell doesn't make what you have to say true. Whispered or shouted, blasphemy is blasphemy.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

:first: POTD

Knight,

I must say, your POTD's are quite humorous!

:darwinsm:

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Poly
I'd rather have my pinky cut off than have a bumper sticker that says that or anything else that says that. :vomit:

Pinky??? Why not go for an arm, or a leg? That would be more interesting.

 

[1Way]

Z man - That's funny about suggesting to cut off an arm or a leg instead, ,,, in a grotesque, yet morbid sort of way.

So what is your view? Does God control everything through His declarative and passive/permitting wills? Hence God is ultimately responsible for it all? Or do you believe that there is no such things as sins of omission, just sins of commission?

God's word is unambiguous, if you allow evil to easily happen when you could have stopped it or somehow opposed it, that is an evil thing to "do", to not actively oppose evil.

So how do you rescue God from being the most evil person ever?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by 1Way
So what is your view? Does God control everything through His declarative and passive/permitting wills?

Of course He does.

Hence God is ultimately responsible for it all?

What do you mean when you say "all"?

God's word is unambiguous, if you allow evil to easily happen when you could have stopped it or somehow opposed it, that is an evil thing to "do", to not actively oppose evil.

Of course God opposes evil, but the fact that it exists is evidence itself that God does allow evil to happen. What shape would mankind and the world be in if God did not allow the evilness of His Son's crucifixtion to happen? We'd still be lost!

So how do you rescue God from being the most evil person ever?

More like, how can God rescue man from being the most evil being ever! :shocked:

 

[Rolf Ernst]

POLY--You say bad things don't come from God? Do you believe that it is possible for the same event to be either good or evil depending upon the perspective from which it is seen? Could I get a yes or no? It is a simple and clear cut issue.
Do you believe that the same event might be in accord with the will of two very different individuals, that an evil person may be willing, even instrumental in the event out of evil motives, and another may be willing the same event yet for a good and just purpose?

After thinking about these two questions, consider the substitutionary atonement of Christ. God the Father's will and purpose was in it. "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him. He has put Him to grief." Isa. 53:10 and the evil intent of men who willed EVIL against Him was also involved "Him being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have crucified by wicked hands and put to death." Acts 2:23

INCIDENTALLY--people might conceivably use capitalizations to draw special attention to certain points. The english language does not have stress marks as do some languages. If someone writing in english wants to EMPHASIZE, for the purpose of clearly communicating a point, how do YOU recommend that they do it?
Personally, when I see caps, I assume that the other person is using them as stress points. Sometimes I wish the english language was a little more expressive--without ad hominems and purple language, of course

If you have considered the example of both God's will and man's will being involved in Christ offering Himself up, go just a little bit further and think about Job--satan and God were both involved from different perspectives; satan with his evil intent, and God with His holy purpose. The same event was willed by different personages with two radically different motivations--one evil and the other holy.
Was God, who has the right to determine and bring to an end the span of evedry man's life, guilty of murdering Job's servants simply because He used evil men as instruments who had no RIGHT to take life? Was God, who gives to all men their posessions, guilty of theft simply because He used evil men with theft in their heart in taking from Job that which He had given him?
Or consider the incident where Joseph was sold into slavery and Joseph told his brothers years later, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Again, motivation must be considered. What was God's motivation? What was the motivation of Joseph's brothers?
Or consider God's judgement against His people in Isa. 10. Assyria is referred to as the rod of His anger (v.5); as instruments of judgement in His hands like the ax and the saw (v.15). God's motivation is in sending Assyria against people for judgement (v.6),
but Assyria's motivation is evil (v.7-14).
God fulfills His just purpose of executing judgement against His wandering people, Assyrias motive is contrary to God's motive. Again, same deed, different motives--one holy, one evil; and God, who used Assyria in executing His will, later executes jusgement against Assyria for its evbil motive in that deed. Was God guilty because evil men with wicked motives acted according to their evil intent?
Some who post on this forum would charge God with being guilty of all the crimes listed above. THAT is blasphemy. THAT is not in accord with the spirit of the righteous man Job who bowed his head and said, the LORD has given, and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."
The REAL issue in recent discussions has been the fact of God's sovereign will in all things. Unbelievers so dislike a God with that absolute power that they vengefully and wickedly try to fasten upon Him the guilt that belongs only to those who acted with evil intent and motives.
God doesn't just consider a man's actions. He also considers the motivation of man's heart. I am sure the wicked with try to draw poison out of His doing that also. "Why do the heathen rage, and the people plot a vain thing?"

 

[billwald]

Reformed Christianity, not Calvinism, limits God because Reformed Christians fail to follow their doctrines to their ultimate conclusion. Reformed, like the rest of the church, doesn't believe that God can save anyone because of Jesus'es atonement but are actually Pelagian because it is taught that a person has to respond to specific Christian doctrine before God can save him.

 

[1Way]

Was I that confusing, or are you that ...

Was I that confusing, or are you that ...

Z man - I'm only guessing, but you didn't give much effort into your post to me, did you. LOL. Here is what you posted.

Originally posted by 1Way
So what is your view? Does God control everything through His declarative and passive/permitting wills?

Of course He does.

Hence God is ultimately responsible for it all?

What do you mean when you say "all"?

Now, this time, consider what I said only without separating everything as you did.

So what is your view? Does God control everything through His declarative and passive/permitting wills? Hence God is ultimately responsible for it all? Or do you believe that there is no such things as sins of omission, just sins of commission?

You see, when you simply consider the context that the meaning in question is used in, often the clarity is self provided. You have to ignore the context to not understand what I meant when I used the word "all". Let that be a lesson to you, if you are so inclined towards understanding the truth without violating the context for which it belongs.

You posted

God's word is unambiguous, if you allow evil to easily happen when you could have stopped it or somehow opposed it, that is an evil thing to "do", to not actively oppose evil.

Of course God opposes evil, but the fact that it exists is evidence itself that God does allow evil to happen. What shape would mankind and the world be in if God did not allow the evilness of His Son's crucifixtion to happen? We'd still be lost!

And again we see that you seem unaware of the context which has been simply and clearly placed before you. I actually included the following which guides the context of your quote but that you did not include for some strange reason. Although it is separated by a paragraph, I did not mean to sever the train of thought altogether.

So what is your view? Does God control everything through His declarative and passive/permitting wills? Hence God is ultimately responsible for it all? Or do you believe that there is no such things as sins of omission, just sins of commission?

God's word is unambiguous, if you allow evil to easily happen when you could have stopped it or somehow opposed it, that is an evil thing to "do", to not actively oppose evil.

You see, I was referring to the idea of God being in control of "everything" thus because of moral deeds of omission "and" commission, since God controls everything by His wills as I suspected you would say, then unless you don't believe in sins of omission, how do you rescue God from being the most evil person ever. So I was not questioning if God opposes evil. You have to be really careless, or trying to misunderstand what I said to get that out of my simple and clear post to you. Please try again to understand what I actually said, and respond to what I actually communicated, not your fragmented/disconnected ideas.

You ended up saying

More like, how can God rescue man from being the most evil being ever! :shocked:

Well you are starting to sound like my view now, are you confused, we are not on the same side, other than both being Christians, right? So, if you grant the validity of the teachings

of "sins of omission" and not just sins of commission,

and that God controls everything,

and that evil obviously still happens,

then how do you rescue God from being as evil as all the evil that He permits instead of doing everything He could to stop it? Do you suggest that He is not powerful enough to stop all evil from happening? Please explain. I think that what I have posted here may represent perhaps an early junior high level grade of reading/writting skill, perhaps even lower than that, I hope you can read for comprehension at a higher capability than what you have displayed so far. (Boy oh boy, some people's kids, ya gotta constantly watch over them, tell then what to do, make them shape up, and some just are sooooo, ,,, .)

 

[1Way]

billwald - You said

Reformed, like the rest of the church, doesn't believe that God can save anyone because of Jesus'es atonement but are actually Pelagian because it is taught that a person has to respond to specific Christian doctrine before God can save him.

Right, as though your doctrine for man's response for salvation is not required for man to be saved... Everyone has such a doctrine, even you. You just describe the nature of man's response differently or attribute it to God instead of man, so I think you presume too much.

Pelagianism raises man's free will and attacks God's soverign individual choice concerning who gets saved, and to that extent, I agree, but he also taught that babies did not need baptizm for salvation, they were born innocent and did not need an internal sort of grace to help them get saved, and there I disagree with Palagius, God gave His grace to everyone and wills that all be saved, so everyone is capable of beign saved, and now we are back to agreeing with Pelagius. From what I gather, he was mostly right, but was confussed about God's grace and God's foreknowledge. He taught that by man's own merit alone, man advances in holiness, so there's another I would disagree with, sanctification is always connected by the work of the HS in man. It seems to me that his teachings may have had long lasting effects that helped the reformers stop being catholic over issues like infant water baptism for example, to bad He accepted the idea that God foreknows in advance everyone how will become saved, a deeply Augustinian view, and he seemed to hate Augustine's teachings the most. Live and learn.

You honestly think that Reformed theology is accurately described as being Pelagian? :think:

 

[jobeth]

1way asked:
"how do you rescue God from being as evil as all the evil that He permits instead of doing everything He could to stop it?"

You rescue God from being evil, knowing God neglects to prevent evil that He could easily prevent if He wanted to, By denying that any unnecessary evil ever actually occurs.

If everything that happens, even the bad stuff, always works together to facilitate good in the end, then the "bad" affliction of all events, can be considered light and temporal, compared with the good that ultimately ensues. And this is true for ALL circumstances and ALL situations. Indeed, God may be "causing" or "allowing" a seemingly "evil" event for a "good" and meaningful purpose.

This is why we are encouraged, even commanded, to exercise patience in affliction. We do not know the end, nor do we know how everything is going to work out. Knowing this, how can we POSSIBLY interpret the "good" or "evil" of any small event, compared with the grandness and glory of God's eternal purpose?????

How does it make you feel when someone has not tried to consider your point of view? Well, can't you at least consider that I look at things from the eternal perspective of assurance that ALL things work together for good, rather than my assuming the perspective that some things are random and unnecessary? I am not calling "evil" good. Rather, what I am saying is that the so-called "evil" that occurs is not random or unnecessary, but meaningful and serves a good purpose, even when we cannot see that purpose or understand how it will eventually work for our benefit.

I remember once, years ago, a man came into my lane and hit my car head-on. Both my children were buckled up in the back seat, but we were all uninjured, thank God. Well my car was totaled, but I received more insurance money for the car than what I'd paid for it, because it was new, and I'd gotten a good deal on it. I was able to replace the car, put money in the kid's savings account, and still had some left over. Now, are you going to tell me that God and grace had nothing to do with that? I refuse to believe that was just good luck! Yes, the experience of the accident was horrible at the time. But I could never believe that God had nothing to do with it.

Remember that the Pharasees refused to believe that Jesus has performed healings by the power of God. They attributed Jesus' miracles to Satan. And Jesus told them they were blaspheming the Holy Ghost, by attributing to demons what God had done.

What if it is a mistake to say that God is not responsible for a particular event EVEN IF that event turns out for our benefit? Wouldn't that be the same type of blasphemy that the Pharasees were guilty of? Can't you at least consider the possibility that God knew all along how well things would turn out, and so that is why He did not prevent the so-called "evil", even though He could have?

 

[1Way]

Jobeth - I already addressed your lack of reason about uneccesary evil by pointing out that evil is still evil, pretending that evil is necessary does nothing to the fact that evil/sin/wickedness/immorality/injustice/imorality/lawlessness/inquity/ungodliness is still against God and His will. For you to in essence say that it is God's will, is begging the question of what all those ills just formentioned mean. Is that why you conveniently forgot to answer my questions to you? So that you can pretend like I did not already defeat your notion of neccessary evil? Don't beg the question, and don't pretend like I did not already address this and you already avoided it.

You said

How does it make you feel when someone has not tried to consider your point of view? Well, can't you at least consider that I look at things from the eternal perspective of assurance that ALL things work together for good, rather than my assuming the perspective that some things are random and unnecessary?

It does not mean all things without exception, the exceptions are stated right there in that same verse! It says that only applies to those who love God and who are called according to his purpose. That greatly qualifies and limits the "all things for good" idea to a small minority of things, since the vast majority of people do not love God. Look on the bright side, all you have to do is excersise a little readig for comprehension skills, say somewhere around the 4 or 5th grade level, and you'll be cured of missing ideas like, to those who love God and are called...

Jobeth, chuckles, go like this with your finger, no over there, you have some bible bits stuck between your teeth, there you go, it sort of stuck out there noticable, it's ok now, you got it. :thumb:

As to your comment about luck and chance events, God says that some things, even life and death things, happen by chance and or without God causing it to happen. See the good semaritan and the tower of salom passages (splls?).

You said

Remember that the Pharasees refused to believe that Jesus has performed healings by the power of God. They attributed Jesus' miracles to Satan. And Jesus told them they were blaspheming the Holy Ghost, by attributing to demons what God had done.

Great point Jobeth! It is blasphemous to attribute to demons what God had done, and thus the same is true in both directions, to attribute to God what demons had done is blasphemous because you should always give God credit only for what He does, not what others do.

But let me clarify, are you siding with the arguements of the men who hated God and wanted to kill Jesus Christ as though what they said are the words to live by? i.e. the claim that what Jesus did was done by demons was a false claim, yet your view assumes it to be true, i.e. that God does demonic work. They also said He was demon possessed, so do you now think that God was demon possessed too? I realize the truth of what God did, God corrected the false accusers for being false, not for rightly attributing evil to God. You must really be desperate to side with unbeileving who wanted to kill Jesus Christ just so that your unbiblical and contextually ripped views can be supported in your eyes only.

I repeat the simple, the obvious:

Is there such a thing as


Godly ungodliness?

Unrighteous sinful righteousness?

Morally upright imorality?

Just injustice?

A wrong that is right?

A truth that is false?

A yes that is no?

A light that is darkness?

Sweet that is bitter?

Holy unholiness?

:doh:

 

[jobeth]

1way:
Call me. On the phone. I need to talk to you.

 

[1Way]

Jobeth, I lost your number months ago during some bizzar phone troubles. Maybe email me and go from there, sorry.


Do you know what mm's are? Moral Morons.duh, what is evil, what is good, God's will is for both, right? ah, yep, God does evil and good both and His good nature somehow makes the evil that God does, into "good godly ungodliness" and of course there the ever popular "righteous unrighteousness" and the "down home down right divine evil, sin and iniquity", and last but not least, don't forget about dear old "unjust justice" and "upright and morally good immorality".