Does bob b believe supernatural/paranormal events occur today?

[bob b]

If "the obvious" is as obvious as you say, it should be readily evident no matter how hard my heart is. You know, like gravity?

Not so.

Examples:

1) We didn't actually land on the Moon, the event was staged in a studio,

2) Hollow Earth believers,

3) Holocaust deniers,

4) The US caused 9/11,

5) God marvelled at the unbelief of the Hebrews who had seen the miracles and yet denied them.

There is a long history of unbelief/denial of the obvious.

World famous atheist Antony Flew recently announced that the complexity of life had finally convinced him that there must be some sort of "higher power". What took you so long Antony? Wasn't it obvious?

But the "superior" mind of Gerald is still holding out, probably because like many atheists he believes that God and man have some sort of obligation to furnish him with the kind of "proof" he desires, although God has already provided plenty of proof in what He created (as stated in scripture).

 

[Gerald]

World famous atheist Antony Flew recently announced that the complexity of life had finally convinced him that there must be some sort of "higher power". What took you so long Antony? Wasn't it obvious?

If Flew was "world famous" why hadn't I heard of him before the supernaturalists started making hay out of his philosophical blather?

But the "superior" mind of Gerald is still holding out, probably because like many atheists he believes that God and man have some sort of obligation to furnish him with the kind of "proof" he desires, although God has already provided plenty of proof in what He created (as stated in scripture).

Well, when a man tells me that an undetectable entity created me and loves me and wants to be loved by me, and waves a book in my face to back up that claim, what am I supposed to do?

I'm sorry, bob, but for me to accept the notion that the entity you venerate exists and interacts with its followers I'd have to accept that (for example):

• sticks can be transformed into snakes
• spirits of the dead (or entities posing as such) can be contacted
• animals can speak as human beings do
• human beings get up and walk around after having been dead and buried for extended periods

Now, not one of those things has ever been verified to have occured today. Such things only appear to happen long ago and far away. What conclusion should one draw from such observations?

 

[Granite]

...that, perhaps, such events are shy and hate being photographed, filmed, or verified.

 

[GuySmiley]

Now, not one of those things has ever been verified to have occured today. Such things only appear to happen long ago and far away. What conclusion should one draw from such observations?

You could conlude that such things only happened long ago and far away. Unless you lived in the middle east, then you'd only have to conclude that such things happened long ago. There are a lot of other things you could conclude also, but I wont list them.

 

[Gerald]

...that, perhaps, such events are shy and hate being photographed, filmed, or verified.

Ah, the Randi Effect™, much maligned by the psychic phenomena crowd... :chuckle:

 

[bob b]

If Flew was "world famous" why hadn't I heard of him before the supernaturalists started making hay out of his philosophical blather?
Well, when a man tells me that an undetectable entity created me and loves me and wants to be loved by me, and waves a book in my face to back up that claim, what am I supposed to do?

I'm sorry, bob, but for me to accept the notion that the entity you venerate exists and interacts with its followers I'd have to accept that (for example):

• sticks can be transformed into snakes
• spirits of the dead (or entities posing as such) can be contacted
• animals can speak as human beings do
• human beings get up and walk around after having been dead and buried for extended periods

Now, not one of those things has ever been verified to have occured today. Such things only appear to happen long ago and far away. What conclusion should one draw from such observations?

What conclusion is obvious derives from two things that you failed to mention: the universe did not create itself and, after reading the thread "Cell Trends Too", that life did not arise "naturally". There are more things, but these two should suffice as a starter.

 

[Granite]

What conclusion is obvious derives from two things that you failed to mention: the universe did not create itself and, after reading the thread "Cell Trends Too", that life did not arise "naturally". There are more things, but these two should suffice as a starter.

...which of course sidesteps the troublesome habit "miracles" have of not ever occurring today.

 

[bob b]

...which of course sidesteps the troublesome habit "miracles" have of not ever occurring today.

Yes, because they could be occurring without us being able to prove conclusively that they were.

This is essentially no different than it has ever been. Believers believe and skeptics don't, because even when something happens out of the ordinary it can always be chalked up to something else, even a mental phenomenon.

 

[Gerald]

What conclusion is obvious derives from two things that you failed to mention: the universe did not create itself and, after reading the thread "Cell Trends Too", that life did not arise "naturally". There are more things, but these two should suffice as a starter.

No, they do not, because they are irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

You keep falling back on Ultimate Origins™, bob, but that particular dog won't hunt here.

 

[Granite]

Yes, because they could be occurring without us being able to prove conclusively that they were.

This is essentially no different than it has ever been. Believers believe and skeptics don't, because even when something happens out of the ordinary it can always be chalked up to something else, even a mental phenomenon.

They "could" be? Where? When? Are you saying they "might" be occurring somewhere else right now? Can you provide an example of something that "could" be construed as a miracle, or not? This hypothetical bunk might make you feel better but it's a fantasy, pure and simple.

 

[Gerald]

Yes, because they could be occurring without us being able to prove conclusively that they were.

The only way this could be the case is if the agency responsible is actively hiding its involvement.

This is essentially no different than it has ever been. Believers believe and skeptics don't, because even when something happens out of the ordinary it can always be chalked up to something else, even a mental phenomenon.

"Out of the ordinary": got any examples?

 

[bob b]

No, they do not, because they are irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

Creation of the universe is the ultimate supernatural event, followed closely by the creation of life..

You keep falling back on Ultimate Origins™, bob, but that particular dog won't hunt here.

Why not? Because you have no answer?

 

[Gerald]

Creation of the universe is the ultimate supernatural event, followed closely by the creation of life...

Doesn't look very supernatural to me.

Yeah, scripture says "the heavens declare the glory of God" but it fails to articulate exactly how they go about doing that.

Why not? Because you have no answer?

I've never asked the question, so I don't need an answer. I just accept that the universe exists (it's not like I have a choice) and go forward from there.

 

[bob b]

I just accept that the universe exists (it's not like I have a choice) and go forward from there.

This could be called "ignoring the obvious".

Reminds me of the evolutionist's mantra: "evolution doesn't include abiogenesis".

But hey guys, if abiogenesis wasn't natural then by definition it must have been supernatural, and therefore the starting conditions might not have been a "hypothetical primitive protocell".

 

[Gerald]

This could be called "ignoring the obvious".

And God (i.e., "the obvious") doesn't like to be ignored, right? Do you think it hurts his feelings? Makes him sad?

bob, if it's any consolation to you, I treat human beings the exact same way I treat God: I ignore them.

Reminds me of the evolutionist's mantra: "evolution doesn't include abiogenesis".

But hey guys, if abiogenesis wasn't natural then by definition it must have been supernatural, and therefore the starting conditions might not have been a "hypothetical primitive protocell".

I wouldn't know about any of that. All I know is, we exist, and why we exist is of scant importance.

 

[bowhunter]

"The obvious" here being defined as:

"There exists an undetectable entity responible for willing reality into existence, who loves Gerald and genuinely cares about what happens to him, and who is saddened when Gerald insists on rejecting him."

Does that about cover it, bob?

If "the obvious" is as obvious as you say, it should be readily evident no matter how hard my heart is. You know, like gravity?

That's not quite true Gerald, the toads, locusts and hail were evident signs AFTER Moses told Pharoah that I AM wanted him to let the Jews go. HOWEVER, because of his hardened heart, he did not "see" what God was doing.

Another example, a person is told about God's love, starts headed down a hard road, all those who told him or her about God's love see the evidence of the "plagues" that happen to that person for ignoring the warnings, while that person does not. THEN, when they finally wake up, they profess they see the path that God allowed them to walk in order to bring them to HIM.

Of course those who have not accepted God will not see his hand, but those who do know him see it clearly. The problem for you Gerald, is you do not believe, so you are blinded by that unbelief, those of us who do "Clearly see".

 

[Real Sorceror]

That's not quite true Gerald, the toads, locusts and hail were evident signs AFTER Moses told Pharoah that I AM wanted him to let the Jews go. HOWEVER, because of his hardened heart, he did not "see" what God was doing.

Fair enough. Now, please show us the Egyption writings recording this event. The Egyptions weren't exactly lax in writing their history, and I expect that fire rain and a river of blood where reasonably notable events. Heck, they might even have a temple somewhere in honor of ol' Yahweh, with graphic pictures and whatnot.

 

[Granite]

Fair enough. Now, please show us the Egyption writings recording this event. The Egyptions weren't exactly lax in writing their history, and I expect that fire rain and a river of blood where reasonably notable events. Heck, they might even have a temple somewhere in honor of ol' Yahweh, with graphic pictures and whatnot.

I am not aware of any Egyptologist who has ever noted a massive collapse of the Egyptian economy, military, work force, and population due to a series of pandemics, disasters, and the flight of a massive group of slaves, either. One would think wiping out a chunk of Egypt's army, leadership, and laborers would not have escaped attention completely.

 

[Real Sorceror]

I am not aware of any Egyptologist who has ever noted a massive collapse of the Egyptian economy, military, work force, and population due to a series of pandemics, disasters, and the flight of a massive group of slaves, either. One would think wiping out a chunk of Egypt's army, leadership, and laborers would not have escaped attention completely.

No kidding. You'd think there'd at least be a foot-note somewhere saying, "We got Pwn3d". But instead, theres nothing. There is no hint or suggestion of anything of the sort.

 

[Granite]

No kidding. You'd think there'd at least be a foot-note somewhere saying, "We got Pwn3d". But instead, theres nothing. There is no hint or suggestion of anything of the sort.

There's no comporaneous observations of this event from anyone else, either.