Do Humans Deserve To Suffer?

[PureX]

God doesn't expect perfection, any more than we expect perfection from our children. God's desire is that we turn to Him and trust in Him. Suffering is allowed by God for those greater purposes.

Than why do we continue to suffer even when we "turn to Him and trust in Him"? How does that help teach us this lesson?

Suffering is always for our benefit. For the unsaved, suffering causes them to look to God for mercy. It causes them to realize "something is wrong"....because we were created to be in fellowship with God. Suffering brings people to Christ. For the saved, suffering causes us to trust in God and conforms us into the image of the Son.

And yet we suffer whether we come to God or not. So how does this teach us anything about coming to God, except that God causes endless suffering no matter what we do?

 

[PureX]

That is a poor excuse, since most of us know what good and evil is in almost every instance.

Actually, no we don't.

Many of us THINK we know, because like Adam and Eve, we have taken into ourselves the idea that we can know good and evil as God knows good and evil. But in fact, we do not. Only God can see into the hearts and minds of living beings, and into the future, and understands the reason for existence, so as to actually know what is good and what is not. We just arrogantly presume ourselves to know, when we do not. And in fact, most of the suffering we cause ourselves and each other in life is due to this 'original sin': this sin of hubris; and of presuming ourselves the right and ability to judge as God judges, and to punish as we imagine God would, the good and evil in all things.

You have that backwards.
God does not expect perfection.
He implemented the "sacrifice for sin" because He expects imperfection.

That's completely nonsensical. If he hadn't expected perfection, He would not have needed a sacrifice to absolve our lack of it.

If you believe otherwise, maybe you can share why you think that way.

I am sharing why … because what you are proposing is not reasonable, nor even rational. You are making God out to be … insane. And I can't accept that.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That's completely nonsensical. If he hadn't expected perfection, He would not have needed a sacrifice to absolve our lack of it.

According to your logic:
God expects perfection
Man lacks perfection
God got confused and didn't know what to do about this lack.

According to my logic:
God does not expect perfection
Man lacks perfection
God provided sacrifice as a way for man to make up for the lack of perfection.

Your logic fails.

what you are proposing is not reasonable, nor even rational. You are making God out to be … insane. And I can't accept that.

No, God implementing a sacrifice for sin is a very logical response to the problem with man's imperfection.
Your lack of understanding does not mean God is insane, but you might want to have yourself checked.

 

[Ben Masada]

Do Humans Deserve to Suffer?

Do Humans Deserve to Suffer?

Yes, to learn the hard way and to take longer to forget.

 

[ok doser]

no

we humans do not deserve anything bad that happens to us, no matter how much our actions or choices or behaviors may have led us into positions where unpleasant consequences were inevitable

we should have the right to do whatever we want without anything bad happening to us

otherwise, life just isn't fair

i wanted to add that i am suffering right now, as i did not get the pony for Christmas that i was expecting (and deserved)

and that's just not fair :baby:

 

[chrysostom]

Do we humans deserve to suffer simply because we are human?

your question suggests
that
you don't get it

the reason we are here
is
to test our free will
and
suffering is a very important part of the test

 

[genuineoriginal]

i wanted to add that i am suffering right now, as i did not get the pony for Christmas that i was expecting (and deserved)

and that's just not fair :baby:

You just have to go to the store and buy your own pony.

 

[PureX]

your question suggests
that
you don't get it

the reason we are here
is
to test our free will
and
suffering is a very important part of the test

Why should our free will need "testing"? Is it some sort of experiment? Or some new invention?

 

[PureX]

According to your logic:
God expects perfection
Man lacks perfection
God got confused and didn't know what to do about this lack.

This isn't my logic. It's yours. You're the one who thinks God had to give Himself a sacrificial appeasement because we are not perfect. Why would He need one if He wasn't expecting us to be perfect? Yet you claim that He wasn't expecting us to be perfect … yet he needed to be appeased for it …. So either you aren't making any sense. Or you're making God out to be irrational.

According to my logic:
God does not expect perfection
Man lacks perfection
God provided sacrifice as a way for man to make up for the lack of perfection.

So if God was not expecting our perfection, why did he need a give Himself a sacrifice to make up for our lack of it? You aren't making any sense at all, here!

No, God implementing a sacrifice for sin is a very logical response to the problem with man's imperfection.

Please explain the logic, here, because I am not seeing it, at all. If God didn't need, require, or otherwise expect our perfection, why would he need, expect or require a sacrifice because of our lack of perfection?

Your lack of understanding does not mean God is insane, but you might want to have yourself checked.

I already said that I can't accept that God is insane, which leads me to the conclusion that you are profoundly irrational and have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[chrysostom]

Why should our free will need "testing"? Is it some sort of experiment? Or some new invention?

you can't know what it will choose until it is tested

 

[PureX]

you can't know what it will choose until it is tested

This thread isn't about free will, though, it's about suffering. A lot of our suffering is not the result of our free will. So clearly, human suffering is not only about our having free will. What else it is about, do you think?

 

[genuineoriginal]

This isn't my logic. It's yours.

No, that is all yours.

You're the one who thinks God had to have a sacrificial appeasement because we are not perfect. Why would He need one if He wasn't expecting us to be perfect?

No, I never claimed God had to have a sacrificial appeasement.
Once again, this idea is coming only from you.

What I said is that God implemented the sin sacrifice because He knew we were not perfect.

Yet you claim He wan't expecting us to be perfect. So either you aren't making any sense. Or you're making God out to be irrational.

I am making sense, but you are not understanding because you seem to have some other idea of what is involved in the sin sacrifice.
That makes you sound irrational, but it does not make God irrational.

The purpose of the sin sacrifice is to provide a tangible example of the penalty for sin, which is death, in order to instill a regret for the loss of an innocent life because of our failures in order to get us to repent from our sins and live without the need for another innocent life to be sacrificed.

God does not want the sacrifice, but He gave it to help us to grow in righteousness because He does not expect us to be perfect, but He does expect us to strive to be righteous.

So if God was not expecting our perfection, why did he need a give Himself a sacrifice for our lack of it? You aren't making any sense at all!
Please explain the logic, here, because I am not seeing it, at all.

See above.

I already said that I can't accept that God is insane, which leads me to the conclusion that you are profoundly irrational and have no idea what you're talking about.

God is not insane, I am not profoundly irrational, I know what I am talking about.

That means the problem is in your assumptions about the purpose of the sin sacrifice and God's expections about us.

 

[glorydaz]

Than why do we continue to suffer even when we "turn to Him and trust in Him"? How does that help teach us this lesson?

And yet we suffer whether we come to God or not. So how does this teach us anything about coming to God, except that God causes endless suffering no matter what we do?

First, God does not cause suffering. When sin entered the world through Adam's sin, suffering and death entered with it. God allows us to suffer so we will understand the horrible effects of sin.

First, as sons of Adam (unbelievers), God allows us to suffer and to see the suffering all around us to make us understand our hopeless condition in this world. We see the wages of sin all around us. When we finally figure out something is missing in our lives, we hear the Gospel and have hope. The promises of God abound in the Bible about our future home in heaven. This short time on earth pales in comparison to eternity.

As adopted sons of God (believers), we are baptized by the Holy Spirit INTO Christ Jesus....new creations. Now when we suffer, we know it is for our good, as we're being conformed into the image of the Lord Jesus Christ. He never leaves us or forsakes us, but takes us through the trials and tribulations during our time here on earth as we grown into mature sons of God.

We walk through this valley of the shadow of death, but we need fear no evil, for His rod and staff comfort us. He restores our soul, He fills us with a peace that passes understanding (green pastures), and goodness and mercy follow us all the days of our lives....and we know we will dwell in the house of the Lord forever (where He has promised there will be no more suffering or tears).

 

[PureX]

Does anyone have any thoughts besides "everything is the fault of sin"?

There are a lot of different kinds of suffering, and only some of them have to do with our own inclination to sin. So what of the others?

Most of us suffer rather a lot as the result of OTHER PEOPLE'S inclination to sin, not our own. What of this suffering? Do we deserve it, … how? Do they deserve to be made to suffer because of the suffering they're causing us? Doesn't that just multiply the suffering in the world?

Suffering is a big deal in life. Most of us go to great lengths to try and avoid it. So some of you must have some thoughts on it besides just regurgitating religious superstitions.

 

[serpentdove]

Do we humans deserve to suffer simply because we are human?

You're a sinner (Ro 3:23). You deserve to go to hell (Ro 6:23). You don't get what you deserve (Ro 5:8). :listen: That's the gospel (Jn 3:16).

As a reminder PureX is number 37 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:

 

[glorydaz]

Human suffering is a complicated and often difficult subject to tackle, and so is the idea of "deservedness". But I find them very interesting when coupled together, and welcome any and all thoughts on the subject.

Does anyone have any thoughts besides "everything is the fault of sin"?

There are a lot of different kinds of suffering, and only some of them have to do with our own inclination to sin. So what of the others?

Most of us suffer rather a lot as the result of OTHER PEOPLE'S inclination to sin, not our own. What of this suffering? Do we deserve it, … how? Do they deserve to be made to suffer because of the suffering they're causing us? Doesn't that just multiply the suffering in the world?

Suffering is a big deal in life. Most of us go to great lengths to try and avoid it. So some of you must have some thoughts on it besides just regurgitating religious superstitions.

It's too bad you didn't add that little "regurgitating" comment in your OP, I wouldn't have bothered to give your question serious consideration. The fact is, whether you like it or not, all suffering IS the result of sin. How about you move this thread out of the religion section, since you don't want to be puked on by those of us with faith in the word of God.

 

[oatmeal]

"Man has brought upon himself the evil with which he is surrounded."

VP Wierwille

 

[PureX]

It's too bad you didn't add that little "regurgitating" comment in your OP, I wouldn't have bothered to give your question serious consideration. The fact is, whether you like it or not, all suffering IS the result of sin. How about you move this thread out of the religion section, since you don't want to be puked on by those of us with faith in the word of God.

I'm looking for other thoughts and comments besides these overly simplistic dogmatic proclamations. I've posted many questions so far. You seem only capable of responding to one or two with the same answer. It's frustrating.

Maybe people just don't have any answers, and don't want to think about it.

 

[PureX]

"Man has brought upon himself the evil with which he is surrounded."

VP Wierwille

Do you deserve to suffer for the evils that others do?

 

[Nick M]

Do Humans Deserve To Suffer?

You do, and you will.