ECT Dispensationalism and Its Focus Upon Dividing That What The New Testament Unifies

[northwye]

Dispensationalism and Its Focus Upon Dividing That Which The New Testament Unifies

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Chafer, a founder of dispensationalism. following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.

In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The
essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel
and the church." (page 3, "Dispensationalism")

J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. (page 193,
J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).

Nowhere in their statements on the foundations of the Church Theology called dispensationalism do the founders acknowledge that the New Testament teaches that there is a unity, not a division, between Jews who are born again in Christ by faith and Gentiles born again in Christ by faith.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Romans 10: 12

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27.For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.: Galatians 3: 26-28

Paul is sometimes subtle and this is true in Ephesians 2: 11-13 -
"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

Nigh is an Old English word, from Strong's 1451, ἐγγύς, eggus, near in place or time From: https://biblehub.com/greek/1451.htm

Gentiles who were before far off from the Commonwealth of Israel are made close to Israel by the blood of Christ.

"That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3: 14

"Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6. That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" Ephesians 3: 4-6

There is under the New Covenant a unity between Gentiles of faith and Jews of faith, not a division as dispensationalism seems to put between them.

This fixation on dividing that which the New Testament unifies detracts from the mission of the Gospel of Christ, which is to inspire others to develop faith and be changed by that Gospel into a new Creation.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3: 6-8

Romans 12: 2 says "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Transformed is a translation of μεταμορφουσθε, or metamorphosthe - a metamorphosis, "a change of the form or nature of a thing or person into a completely different one."

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." II Corinthians 5: 17

Creature is from κτισις, ktisis, Strong's Number 2937, "creation, the act or the product, creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, an institution, ordinance." From: https://www.biblehub.com/greek/2937.htm

Galatians 6: 15-16 says "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

Then, Colossians 1: 26-27 tells us "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

The hope of glory is to have Jesus Christ in you.

These New Testament scriptures quoted above emphasize spiritual transformation by the Holy Spirit in Christ and him in you.

The object is to proclaim the Gospel of Christ so that it can change those who receive it - there is not in the New Testament a doctrine that supports an emphasis upon a systematic church theology which argues that God now has two different peoples, and two different programs, Old Covenant Israel and the Church. In fact the New Testament above says just the opposite.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When the nation of Israel was in covenant relationship with God circumcision was a requirement for the sons of Israel and any uncirumcised male was cut off from that nation:

"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you...And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant" (Gen.17:10-11,14).​

On the other hand, circumcision profits no one during the Church age, as witnessed by Paul's words here:

"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love" (Gal.5:6).​

The Scriptures reveal that when the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with the LORD the children of Israel were a special people unto Himself:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

On the other hand, during the Church age there are no special people unto the LORD except for believers and in the Body of Christ there is no distinction between the Jews and those of other nationalities:

"And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all" (Col.3:10-11).​

These facts serve to prove that when the LORD's program for Israel is in view then that program cannot be about the Body of Christ because His two different programs are mutually exclusive. In other words, when the Divine plan toward Israel is in effect then the children of Israel are above all people on the face of the earth so therefore it is impossible that at the same time the Divine plan is also toward the Body of Christ where there is no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles.

 

[northwye]

"These facts serve to prove that when the LORD's program for Israel is in view then that program cannot be about the Body of Christ because His two different programs are mutually exclusive. In other words, when the Divine plan toward Israel is in effect then the children of Israel are above all people on the face of the earth so therefore it is impossible that at the same time the Divine plan is also toward the Body of Christ where there is no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles."

The implication from the argument above is that some time in the future God is going to change the dispensation back to one in which Old Covenant Israel is again the chosen people, apparently because of their physical bloodline. And within the dispensationalist theology, the above is a substantive argument though Romans 11: 25-26 is not stated to support the argument.

Yet if this is a substantive argument within New Testament scripture, then there would be more than Romans 11: 25-26 to support it. Because Romans 11: 26 does not clearly indicate from "και ουτως πας ισραηλ σωθησεται - And in this way all Israel shall be saved" can only mean ethnic or physical Israel of the Old Covenant. The Calvinist or Reformation interpretation of Romans 11: 26 is that Israel here refers to all the elect of God under the New Covenant, and not to physical Israel alone, because Paul's argument all along in Romans supports this view. Therefore, the argument that God is going to return Old Covenant Israel some some day to the status of the Chosen people because of their physical blood line is an argument within dispensationalism and not within New Testament scripture.

 

[northwye]

See: https://biblehub.com/greek/3779.htm
οὕτως, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number 3779. houtós, in this way, thus, so, in this manner.

Houtos refers back to what Paul says in Romans 11, prior to verses 25-26.

Paul begins Romans 11 by talking about the remnant of Israel in verses 1-6. He says in Romans 11: 5-6 that "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Here he establishes that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel has become part of God's elect by grace.

Then in Romans 11: 11-12 he brings in the Gentiles and says in Romans 11: 12: " Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?" "Them" is Old Covenant Israel.

Then in Romans 11: 20-23 he says "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be "graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

Paul is saying all along in Romans 11 that the elect of God is made up of both Gentiles and Jews who have been made into the elect by their faith.

So in Romans 11: 26 when he says in this way all Israel shall be saved he does not mean that only those of the literal, physical bloodline from Abraham will be saved. He said as early as Romans 11: 6 that the elect are saved by grace.

The Literalist "Hermeneutic" of dispensationalism may help make dispensationalists unable to see that Romans 11: 26 refers back to Paul's including the elect Gentiles and elect Jews in one unified group, since Paul uses the word "Israel" which for dispensatonalists apparently can mean only Old Covenant Israel. The "Israel of God in Galatians 6: 15-16 could help dispensationalists understand this "All Israel" in Romans 11: 26. But the separation between Old Covenant Israel and the Church is so strong in dispensationalism that this is a difficult stretch to see for dispensationists.

 

[binyamin7]

The object is to proclaim the Gospel of Christ so that it can change those who receive it - there is not in the New Testament a doctrine that supports an emphasis upon a systematic church theology which argues that God now has two different peoples, and two different programs, Old Covenant Israel and the Church. In fact the New Testament above says just the opposite.

It is not Biblical to say that God is saving people who reject Christ I agree. The Gospel being preached is our principle goal, I agree.

However God will bring back natural Israel in the latter years (Ez 37:12, 38:8, Lk 21:24, etc etc) and Honor the covenant He made with natural Israel in Genesis 15. How do we know this? Well two very clear reasons we can conclude this are 1. God has spoken many unfulfilled prophecies pertaining to natural geographic Israel and surrounding nations that have yet to be fulfilled- and we are seeing them being fulfilled. 2. Paul very explicitly said that "Israel has been blinded in part until the period of the Gentiles is fulfilled. And so, as it is written, ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED" -Romans 11:25-2.

 

[northwye]

The prophecy saying that God will some day return to physical Old Covenant Israel as his chosen people by their bloodline is a doctrine within dispensationalism.

And as a doctrine within dispensationalism does not this prophecy teach that God will do away with the present dispensation of justification by faith and return to an honoring of that which is physical in Old Covenant Israel?

The question then, is what does this doctrine of dispensationalism within the evangelical church denominations do to the teachings of Galatians 3? Dispensationalists do not deal much with Galatians 3 and seem to try to avoid it as much as possible. Does dispensationalism become in its prophecy that God will return to some kind of honoring of the physical traits of Old Covenant Israel an argument against Galatians 3, and an argument against justification by faith alone?

Dispensationalists also do not deal with the New Testament scriptures which say that the Old Covenant was done away with. Dispensationalism's postulate that God will some day change the dispensation and will then honor that which is physical in Old Covenant Israel, making the central teaching of Galatians 3 only temporary. The NT scriptures on the doing away with Old Covenant Israel are II Corinthians 3: 7, and 3: 11, Hebrews 8: 13 and Hebrews 10: 9.

Also dispensationalists do not deal with the New Testament scriptures which say that believing Gentiles become a part of Israel. These scriptures include Ephesians 2: 11-13 and Ephesians 3: 1-6. Then in Galatians 5: 15-16 Paul writes about the Israel of God, which he implies is made up of all who are new creatures or creations in Christ, regardless of their physical DNA - in verse 15.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The implication from the argument above is that some time in the future God is going to change the dispensation back to one in which Old Covenant Israel is again the chosen people, apparently because of their physical bloodline. And within the dispensationalist theology, the above is a substantive argument though Romans 11: 25-26 is not stated to support the argument.

Let us look at the promises of the LORD in regard to the Davidic covenant:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

There has never been a time when the children of Israel were brought back to the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and were moved no more, unless that prophecy is being fulfilled right now. And there has never been a time when they were brought back to the land and were moved no more and the Israelites were not afflicted by their enemies because at this time they are being afflicted by their enemies. Therefore, we can understand that in the future these prophecies concerning Israel and the land will be fulfilled. After all, the LORD said that He would not alter the promises He made to David and He also said that He will not lie to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant...I will not take my love from him, nor will I ever betray my faithfulness. I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness-- and I will not lie to David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The following prophecy speaks of the time when the promise the LORD made to David concerning the land and the Israelites living in peace will be fulfilled:

"They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever'" (Ezek.37:25-28).​

Your theology makes the LORD a liar because your theology denies that Israel will ever be brought back to the land and then they will no longer be afflicted by their enemies.

Besides that, you cannot even understand that the Divine program toward Israel and the Divine program toward the Body of Christ are mutually exclusive.

 

[binyamin7]

The prophecy saying that God will some day return to physical Old Covenant Israel as his chosen people by their bloodline is a doctrine within dispensationalism.

It's just what the Word says, but yes people label it dispensationalism.

And as a doctrine within dispensationalism does not this prophecy teach that God will do away with the present dispensation of justification by faith and return to an honoring of that which is physical in Old Covenant Israel?

I don't believe this. God has been bringing Israel back in the last days as He said he would (Ezek 37:12, 38:8, Joel 3:1) to fulfill His purposes, but I believe as Armeggedon starts to take place Israel calls out to God with a spirit of "grace and supplication" (repentance) and Jesus delivers them from their certain demise (Zech 12:10). They believe in Christ and are saved by this.

The question then, is what does this doctrine of dispensationalism within the evangelical church denominations do to the teachings of Galatians 3? Dispensationalists do not deal much with Galatians 3 and seem to try to avoid it as much as possible. Does dispensationalism become in its prophecy that God will return to some kind of honoring of the physical traits of Old Covenant Israel an argument against Galatians 3, and an argument against justification by faith alone?

This is an oversimplification. I have no problem with Galatians 3. In 1 Cor 12:12 we see that we are "one body" but many members with different purposes. Does that make us any less one? They will be saved by grace through faith in Christ in that future date. Jesus said that the Pharisees and Jerusalem would see Him again when they said "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (Matt 23:39), and that is exactly what happens in Zech 12:10.

Dispensationalists also do not deal with the New Testament scriptures which say that the Old Covenant was done away with. Dispensationalism's postulate that God will some day change the dispensation and will then honor that which is physical in Old Covenant Israel, making the central teaching of Galatians 3 only temporary. The NT scriptures on the doing away with Old Covenant Israel are II Corinthians 3: 7, and 3: 11, Hebrews 8: 13 and Hebrews 10: 9.

The law is done away with. But the law of faith and the promises to Abraham, which predate the Law by 400 years, will be honored. Israelis will rebuild the temple and begin sacrifices again according to prophecy but that doesn't mean they are right with God until they turn to the Lord.

Also dispensationalists do not deal with the New Testament scriptures which say that believing Gentiles become a part of Israel. These scriptures include Ephesians 2: 11-13 and Ephesians 3: 1-6. Then in Galatians 5: 15-16 Paul writes about the Israel of God, which he implies is made up of all who are new creatures or creations in Christ, regardless of their physical DNA - in verse 15.

The church is never called the new "Israel" once. Children of the circumcision/ promise or that we have been "grafted in" (Romans 11), but "blindness is part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And so ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED as it is Written..." (Romans 11:25-26)


You have to remember much of the preterist/ replacement theology was formed when there had been no Israel for over a thousand years so the reformers thought for sure it could not mean literal Israel anymore. We live in the end times so we can literally see the prophecies being fulfilled before our eyes.

 

[binyamin7]

Why are the Scriptures I posted not linking automatically in that post?

 

[northwye]

Here is an article on the historical situation of the early Christian Churches in Rome which was the background for Paul's letter to the Romans.

See: https://www.thoughtco.com/the-early-church-at-rome-363409

"Christians began to experience greater persecution under the rule of Emperor Nero -- a brutal and perverted man who harbored an intense dislike for Christians. Indeed, it's known that near the end of his rule Nero enjoyed capturing Christians and setting them on fire to provide light for his gardens at night. The apostle Paul wrote the Book of Romans during the early reign of Nero, when Christian persecution was just beginning. Amazingly, the persecution only became worse near the end of the first century under Emperor Domitian"

"As mentioned above, the earliest Christian converts in Rome were likely of Jewish origin. The early Roman churches were dominated and led by Jewish disciples of Jesus. When Claudius expelled all Jews from the city of Rome, however, only the Gentile Christians remained. Therefore, the church grew and expanded as a largely Gentile community from 49 to 54 A.D."

"When Claudius perished and Jews were allowed back in Rome, the returning Jewish Christians came home to find a church that was much different from the one they had left. This resulted in disagreements about how to incorporate the Old Testament law into following Christ, including rituals such as circumcision."

"For these reasons, much of Paul's letter to the Romans includes instructions for Jewish and Gentile Christians on how to live in harmony and properly worship God as a new culture -- a new church. For example, Romans 14 offers strong advice on settling disagreements between Jewish and Gentile Christians in connection with eating meat sacrificed to idols and observing the different holy days of the Old Testament law."

Since there were disagreements between Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles in the churches in Rome during this period when Paul was still alive, there must have been interaction between Roman Jewish Christians and Roman Gentile Christians, perhaps some even among the two groups in the same churches of Rome. This of course is contrary to dispensationalist teaching, that there is division between even Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles.

So the historical situation of conflict between the new Gentile Christian dominance in the churches of Rome and the returned Jewish Christians suggests that Paul's purpose in writing Romans was to help resolve this conflict. Paul's purpose was then to encourage both groups to grow in the faith and to become more united in Jesus Christ.

His purpose may not have been then to proclaim one of the two groups of Roman Christians to be the dominant group or to say that in the future one group will become dominant. But dispensationalism may try to establish a dominance of the Jewish group at some time in the future.

 

[binyamin7]

That's cool I love getting historical context, however Scripture is absolutely crystal clear that God will still save Israel at a later date (Romans 11:26). This lines up with the unfulfilled prophecies of the OT/ Tanak and what we see happening in the world scene today.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here is an article on the historical situation of the early Christian Churches in Rome which was the background for Paul's letter to the Romans.

Nothing about the historical situation of the early church at Rome changes what Paul wrote at the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:

"I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not" (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).​

So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."

So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away. And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:

"God forbid."​

Despite this clear evidence that the Israel of the OT has not been cast away the Preterits say that God did cast the nation away by the time when Paul wrote His epistle to the Romans.

 

[genuineoriginal]

When the nation of Israel was in covenant relationship with God circumcision was a requirement for the sons of Israel and any uncirumcised male was cut off from that nation:

"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you...And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant" (Gen.17:10-11,14).​

That was the Old Covenant, but God promised He would establish a New Covenant to change His relationship with the sons of Israel. Christians are part of this New Covenant relationship with God.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

On the other hand, circumcision profits no one during the Church age, as witnessed by Paul's words here:

"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love" (Gal.5:6).​

Physical circumcision does not profit anyone, but the circumcision of the heart profits everyone.

Jeremiah 4:4 4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.​

The Scriptures reveal that when the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with the LORD the children of Israel were a special people unto Himself:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

Paul talks about the believers in Jesus Christ being grafted in to the plan God has for His chosen people, and how the unbelievers of the children of Israel have been broken off from that plan due to unbelief.

Romans 11:18-23 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.​

On the other hand, during the Church age there are no special people unto the LORD except for believers and in the Body of Christ there is no distinction between the Jews and those of other nationalities:

"And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all" (Col.3:10-11).​

Every believer in Christ is in the New Covenant, whether they are Greek, Jew, circumcised, uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free.
It is having a part in the New Covenant that is important.

2 Corinthians 3:3-6 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.​

These facts serve to prove that when the LORD's program for Israel is in view then that program cannot be about the Body of Christ because His two different programs are mutually exclusive. In other words, when the Divine plan toward Israel is in effect then the children of Israel are above all people on the face of the earth so therefore it is impossible that at the same time the Divine plan is also toward the Body of Christ where there is no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles.

God's program for Israel is through the New Covenant that Jesus confirmed with His blood.

Matthew 26:27-29 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.​

Believers in Jesus are part of the New Covenant, the Everlasting Covenant that God promised that He would make with the children of Israel.

Jeremiah 32:36-41 36 And now therefore thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning this city, whereof ye say, It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence; 37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: 38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: 39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: 40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. 41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.​

Believers in Jesus are not part of some unknown plan that is not backed by a covenant.
Believers in Jesus are part of the known plan of the New Covenant that God promised He would make with the children of Israel.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Then in Romans 11: 11-12 he brings in the Gentiles and says in Romans 11: 12: " Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?" "Them" is Old Covenant Israel.

The fall of them and the diminishing of them refers to Old Covenant children of Israel.
Their fullness refers to New Covenant children of Israel.

 

[genuineoriginal]

you cannot even understand that the Divine program toward Israel and the Divine program toward the Body of Christ are mutually exclusive.

It sounds like the fictional "divine program towards the Body of Christ" is in opposition to the real Divine program towards Israel which all believers in Jesus Christ are a part of.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

"These facts serve to prove that when the LORD's program for Israel is in view then that program cannot be about the Body of Christ because His two different programs are mutually exclusive. In other words, when the Divine plan toward Israel is in effect then the children of Israel are above all people on the face of the earth so therefore it is impossible that at the same time the Divine plan is also toward the Body of Christ where there is no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles."

The implication from the argument above is that some time in the future God is going to change the dispensation back to one in which Old Covenant Israel is again the chosen people, apparently because of their physical bloodline. And within the dispensationalist theology, the above is a substantive argument though Romans 11: 25-26 is not stated to support the argument.

Yet if this is a substantive argument within New Testament scripture, then there would be more than Romans 11: 25-26 to support it. Because Romans 11: 26 does not clearly indicate from "και ουτως πας ισραηλ σωθησεται - And in this way all Israel shall be saved" can only mean ethnic or physical Israel of the Old Covenant. The Calvinist or Reformation interpretation of Romans 11: 26 is that Israel here refers to all the elect of God under the New Covenant, and not to physical Israel alone, because Paul's argument all along in Romans supports this view. Therefore, the argument that God is going to return Old Covenant Israel some some day to the status of the Chosen people because of their physical blood line is an argument within dispensationalism and not within New Testament scripture.

After I think 5 years a bein' here, I've never been able to get one of these guys or gals to confirm DNA has anything to do with it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That was the Old Covenant, but God promised He would establish a New Covenant to change His relationship with the sons of Israel. Christians are part of this New Covenant relationship with God.

Prove it.

 

[Dartman]

.. In other words, when the Divine plan toward Israel is in effect then the children of Israel are above all people on the face of the earth so therefore it is impossible that at the same time the Divine plan is also toward the Body of Christ where there is no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles.

I agreed with most, if not all, of your post up to this point. And, it's possible I am merely misunderstanding your point.
My understanding of Scripture would be that Israel will be above all MORTAL nations ..... they will NOT be above the immortal righteous, who will be reigning UPON the earth, some over the 12 tribes of Israel, some over other nations, some over several cities .... ALL of them being Kings/Priests.
Included in the immortal righteous will be the true Church, made up of Jews and Gentiles.
Please let me know if I misunderstood you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

After I think 5 years a bein' here, I've never been able to get one of these guys or gals to confirm DNA has anything to do with it.

Let us look at the following verses which speaks of the New Covenant:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

The LORD says that He will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The "fathers" of those who will partake of this covenant were the children of Israel whom the Lord redeemed out of Egypt and the same people who broke His covenant (Jer.11:1-8). Since the "fathers" of these future members of the houses of Israel and Judah were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then that can only mean that in the future the members of both houses will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So in the future there will be a generation made up of the physical descendants of Jacob (Israel) who will all know the LORD and all of them will have their sins forgiven and be saved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I agreed with most, if not all, of your post up to this point. And, it's possible I am merely misunderstanding your point.
My understanding of Scripture would be that Israel will be above all MORTAL nations ..... they will NOT be above the immortal righteous, who will be reigning UPON the earth, some over the 12 tribes of Israel, some over other nations, some over several cities .... ALL of them being Kings/Priests.
Included in the immortal righteous will be the true Church, made up of Jews and Gentiles.
Please let me know if I misunderstood you.

No, I think you are right. It is about the children of Israel being above all "mortal" people on the face of the earth during the time when the Lord Jesus will reign from the throne of David on the earth.