Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

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Door

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So you teach sinless perfectionism
No, voltaire does not. That is what YOU and Jesse teach.

YOU believe that a Christian must stop sinning by volitional obedience to the revealed moral law of God.

voltaire believes that God has taken away all our sin (past, present, and future), and He no longer counts our sins against us.

YOU teach sinless perfection. YOU think you are right if you do right. YOU are self-righteous.

We believe that we are made righteous through faith, and it is a gift from God.
 

godrulz

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No, voltaire does not. That is what YOU and Jesse teach.

YOU believe that a Christian must stop sinning by volitional obedience to the revealed moral law of God.

voltaire believes that God has taken away all our sin (past, present, and future), and He no longer counts our sins against us.

YOU teach sinless perfection. YOU think you are right if you do right. YOU are self-righteous.

Straw man....will not sin is not cannot sin...I am talking about whether we can commit adultery as believers or not, not whether they are counted for or against us, a different issue (imputation). I believe that the commands of Jesus and Paul for saints to not sin should be obeyed. Should I go to prostitutes and worship idols because I have God's grace in my life? By definition, a believer should not sin (but it is not true that they cannot sin). Does I Peter 1:13-16 and Rom. 6:13-16 link obedience with legalism or love/righteousness?

Since I believe Christians can sin and that there is provision for believers who sin, how can my view be labeled sinless perfectionism? Since you guys believe Christians cannot sin and it will not be called or counted as sin if they could or do sin, and that believers are perfect in Christ even while sinning like the devil, then you have a form of perfectionism, not me.

2 Tim. 3:16 is about the OT principles that still apply to the Church.

Ps. 51 (cf. Ps. 32) has generic verses that reflect a heart after God. You would not object to many of them. Can I assume that the few that show a believer's (I know he was not born again, but principles are similar) contrite heart and recognition of sin should be ignored even as we embrace the verses before and after them? As well, Knight showed you a verse or two that made you think because they clearly related sin and a Christian in context.
 

Door

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it is not true that they cannot sin

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

godrulz claims that a Christian is NOT born of God.

or

godrulz claims that John is a liar.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Yes, and this is done by believers.

It is also called reversionism, walking in darkness, squelching the Holy Spirit, a state of carnality, grieving the Holy Spirit, or as I put it “out of the bottom circle”

It is not. There is no such thing as an unrepentant, carnal Christian.

Nang
 

voltaire

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as unpalatable as it may seem to you, godrulz, if a christian has fornication with a prostitute, he has NOT SINNED! and he has no sin because he is in Christ and there is no sin in Christ
 

Door

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It is also called reversionism, walking in darkness, squelching the Holy Spirit, a state of carnality, grieving the Holy Spirit, or as I put it “out of the bottom circle”
All this dung you are spreading is coming out of your "bottom circle", that's for certain.
 

godrulz

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"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

godrulz claims that a Christian is NOT born of God.

or

godrulz claims that John is a liar.

Or I have a resolution from Greek grammar that does not leave a contradiction with previous verses. You have a false dichotomy. There are other possibilities for the text.

For the record, I am having trouble following the debate since I am being scorched by the HEAT, not illuminated by the LIGHT.

As a fellow only child, I am cheering for you and understand your behavior (us against the world...let's start a club).

I think darkness usually refers to the kingdom of darkness and unbelievers, so your point is noted. It contrasts with light and the Kingdom of light (Jesus/believers are also light). I have not refreshed my memory verse by verse, so I am staying on the sidelines with my opinions.

The way the debate has degenerated is why I do not want to have one- on- ones with those who do not even think I am a believer. Thx for confirming my gut feeling.
 

Door

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Question – If one is sinless and perfect, does that mean that person would never die?

No, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is alive because of righteousness. We are waithing for the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8
 

godrulz

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as unpalatable as it may seem to you, godrulz, if a christian has fornication with a prostitute, he has NOT SINNED! and he has no sin because he is in Christ and there is no sin in Christ

This is heresy and contrary to I Corinthians. Well, could you send me money for a hooker, tell your lies to my wife, and be my lawyer on judgment day before a holy God who is not mocked?! Thx for confirming how warped your theology is. Thx, but no thx. I don't buy it.

Does anyone else believe this nonsense, a wrong practice that will arise from wrong belief?

How do you explain the imperatives and exhortations in Pauline writings to believers or do you simply ignore them?
 

Door

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as unpalatable as it may seem to you, godrulz, if a christian has fornication with a prostitute, he has NOT SINNED! and he has no sin because he is in Christ and there is no sin in Christ
I am not disagreeing with you, but for me anyway, I would say that God does not consider it a sin, and does not count it as sin, but I believe that those behaviors are still sin. We as believers do not sin, not because we have not committed the acts defined as sin, we have and do everyday, but because God no longer counts them as sin against us.
 

godrulz

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No, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is alive because of righteousness. We are waithing for the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8

'Flesh' is not always just the body, the temple of the Holy Spirit. It is also used as a metaphor for sin. Yes, we await the resurrection for the redemption of our bodies, but regeneration/sanctification deals with flesh/sin.
 

godrulz

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I am not disagreeing with you, but for me anyway, I would say that God does not consider it a sin, and does not count it as sin, but I believe that those behaviors are still sin. We as believers do not sin, not because we have not committed the acts defined as sin, we have and do everyday, but because God no longer counts then as sin against us.

Double speak and a technical loophole to patch up/prop up a faulty line of reasoning...IMHO, of course.
 

Door

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Or I have a resolution from Greek grammar that does not leave a contradiction with previous verses. You have a false dichotomy. There are other possibilities for the text.
Let's hear one. Give it your best exegesis.
 

godrulz

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Let's hear one. Give it your best exegesis.

Check a commentary (s). I must run. One resolution relates to the verb tenses (continuous, habitual vs isolated lapse). The other is interpretative and has John using strong language to indicate that believers should not sin if they are walking as they should (to the point of cannot, but not literally cannot because we are not robots and other verses, even in the same book, say we can theoretically sin volitionally...so your interpretation creates a contradiction or necessitates loopholes like we can sin, but it is not counted against us, so it is not really sinning?).
 

Door

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'Flesh' is not always just the body, the temple of the Holy Spirit. It is also used as a metaphor for sin. Yes, we await the resurrection for the redemption of our bodies, but regeneration/sanctification deals with flesh/sin.


I never said anything about flesh in that post. You are seeing things again that are not there. Stop taking drugs, and maybe you can express a coherent thought.
 

Door

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Check a commentary (s). I must run.
Already have read nearly all of them.

One resolution relates to the verb tenses (continuous, habitual vs isolated lapse).
One resolution? How many "possible" resolutions are there?

What a moron.

William, just exegete the verse for us. Tell us what you beileive, or use someone else's commentary, I don't care. Just exegete this one verse as you understand it.

You really look silly when you call John a liar, and then not explain why you think he is.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I am not disagreeing with you, but for me anyway, I would say that God does not consider it a sin, and does not count it as sin, but I believe that those behaviors are still sin. We as believers do not sin, not because we have not committed the acts defined as sin, we have and do everyday, but because God no longer counts them as sin against us.

God considers adultery a sin, and deals with adultery as sin, whether committed by a Christian or a non-Christian.

Again, you seem to fail to distinguish between forensic justification (total imputation of sins upon the Christ), and ontological reality.

Our sins are no longer legally held against us, but God (hopefully and usually through the visible church body) will discipline Christians who commit adultery.

And it is only by the grace of God that a Christian will repent from such temptation. See II Timothy 2:25, Acts 5:31, 11:18 and I Cor. 10:13.

Nang
 

godrulz

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Already have read nearly all of them.

One resolution? How many "possible" resolutions are there?

What a moron.

William, just exegete the verse for us. Tell us what you beileive, or use someone else's commentary, I don't care. Just exegete this one verse as you understand it.

You really look silly when you call John a liar, and then not explain why you think he is.

Did they have a consensus? Are those who differed from you going to hell over this issue?

The Greek present, continuous tense would show that a believer who walks in the light cannot continually, habitually sin. It does not mean that they literally cannot have one wrong thought, motive, word, action. We do not need your imputation theory to get around this. Just don't take it as a wooden literalism proof text in English based on a prooftext without consideration to the inspired Greek grammar that comes out in the NIV (cannot continually sin), but not the KJV (cannot sin). They would be no different than the unbelievers who do the same and are going to hell (I Cor. 6:9-11). Since believers can lie, steal, lust, the Corinthian passage is not saying they go to hell for these things. A godless sinner is not the same as one who is in Christ. An isolated lapse that is dealt with is not the same as someone given over to sin to the point they are not walking in Spirit, light, Christ.

Others suggest (LH) that a believer's spirit cannot sin, but their flesh can sin. This is based on a specific view of sin and the body. I don't think we can dissect a person like this and that the will and mind are involved in sin and that it is not a substance. So, our views on harmartiology, soteriology, and anthropology will bias our interpretation of this problem text that believers puzzle over. There is only one right interpretation and I believe mine is consistent with other verses rather than a KJV only English proof text out of context (wooden literalism)...STP's M.O.
 

Door

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God considers adultery a sin, and deals with adultery as sin, whether committed by a Christian or a non-Christian.
The wages of sin is death. Therefore you claim that God takes His life from those who sin.

What ever is not of faith is sin. All unrighteousness is sin. Missing the mark is sin. Anything less than perfection in word, thought, and deed is sin.

Therefore, according to you, God is dealing with you as a sinner at every single moment in your life. That is all He does, because God sees all His children as sinners.

I'm glad I do not believe in your god.

I have the God of the Bible who died for all my sins and took them away, once for all. The God I worship calls me a saint, and He renews my mind (disciplines) with the truth. He lets me know that having once been cleansed, I no longer have consciousness of sins Hebrews 10:1-2

Thank God I serve the Only True God.
 
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