Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[tetelestai]

Come on, tetelestai, It's been at least 8 minutes, where is your proof?

It started to rain really hard, I had to close all of the windows in my house. Sorry, I was away from the computer when you posted your demand.

 

[Door]

Took you long enough to see what Jerry said, before you decided to repeat it.

Why do you think John is telling Christians that he was a witness of the Word of life?

Why do you think it is important that John told them that he has fellowship with the Father and the Son?

 

[tetelestai]

Voltaire said:

you cannot prove your out of fellowship theory nor your filling of the Spirit theory either

Read the 10 virgins parable in Matthew 25.

The parable portrays the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the filling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Door]

John is clearly stating that in order for the fellow believers to have fellowship with one another they need to “walk in the light”, which is the same fellowship that John has with God.

That is your and Jerry's false assumption. The text does not come close to saying anything like that, and I proved it in the other thread. You can disagree with me, and be wrong, if you choose, but I have made NO "blunder".

I stand corrected, however, Jerry is not the only godless pervert who cannot read the simplicity of the text.

 

[Door]

Why don't you quote from the other thread what I said, and prove where it is in error?

 

[Door]

Here is my post...

John is establishing in the first few verses (that you already agreed with) that John was a legitimate authority, having been a witness to the fact that Jesus had come in the flesh.

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled, of the Word of life, and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us”

He is showing them that they have the life. They are in fellowship with the Father, and therefore those to whom he is writing can fellowship with John.

“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”

Paul tells us that light has no fellowship with darkness, and John is making certain that they know that John is someone with whom they can fellowship with, because his fellowship is with the Father. The Gnostics were in darkness, and were not in fellowship with the Father.

Go ahead, show me the error. :yawn:

 

[tetelestai]

Why don't you quote from the other thread what I said, and prove where it is in error?

Door, you seem to be flip flopping.

From the one on one thread, Door said:

I concede the point that John is addressing Gentile believers

From this thread Door said:

Hint: It is not the Christians he is writing to, therefore it must be...

How about if you clarify your postion as to who John is addressing?

 

[Door]

Door, you seem to be flip flopping.

From the one on one thread, Door said:


From this thread Door said:


How about if you clarify your postion as to who John is addressing?

I can see why that would give you pause, and "writing" was a poor choice of words.

But thanks for giving me a chance to clarify.

The Gnostics are the ones he is referring (a much better word choice) to when he speaks of those who are in darkness. He is not writing about the believers, but the Gnostics when he is discussing those who are not walking in the light.

The letter is written to believers, and much of it is written about unbelievers.

Does that help?

 

[JCWR]

The letter is written to believers, and much of it is written about unbelievers.

Good, Door!

I would go even farther and say that the letter has a pastoral aspect, written to believers to strengthen their knowledge of the 'light' of the Gospel and the letter has a polemic aspect, written to those who are false teachers.

 

[JCWR]

In the one on one...

And then John tells the Christian just exactly what they must do in order to be cleansed and to be restored back to fellowship with the Lord Jesus:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

Here when Johnn uses the words "we" and "us" and "our" those words must refer to Christians. What John says here has nothing to do with salvation. As Christians we do not tell unbelievers that if they will confess their sins then the Lord will forgive those sins.

Instead, Christians understand that before a sinner can be saved he must first hear and believe the gospel. So 1 John 1:9 is not a message for unbelievers but instead it is for those who are already saved.

By your logic a believer who dies with unconfessed sins, has unforgiven sin, and therefore must wind up in Hell, since no one gets into heaven even with a teeny bit of unforgiven sin.

Also, a believer who has not confessed all their sins, is also in big trouble, so they need to start carrying around a notebook so they don't miss any to confess later to God.

Obviously, then, the verse is a teaching describing the moment of salvation. And it is clearly not intended to mean the person being saved must enumerate all their sins; instead the person recognizes their current state of enmity towards God and is forgiven.

 

[godrulz]

they also never told God that they would never do those things again. they didnt because they knew good and well that stuff would happen again. they didnt worry about trying to make sure it never happened again either. they told God that if those things displeased him, that he trusted God would take away the desire and need to do those things. he trusted that if God really wanted those things eliminated from his life, then God would work from within him to finally rid him of the character that made him do those things.
now godrulz, that person commits carnal acts on a pretty regular basis and yet still talks to God and trusts him. based on the information above is this person like the corinthians? or is this person a functional atheist as you like to coin that term? if that person died today, would they go to hell? this person trusted in Christ alone many years ago. is he a carnal christian? to me there is no carnal christians. to me this person is saved and is not carnal. what do you say?

Gen. 18:25

God is the Judge. God will not be mocked. God disciplines those He loves. Some show that they are not true believers by how far from God they are. Unbelief is the only fatal sin. If the person is saved, there actions are inconsistent with holiness and they are carnal in those actions, but may still have a relationship with Christ. If they are not saved, their lives are evidence of this. Again, God is the judge of hearts, motives, and standing before Him. One's destiny is not sealed until death. We should preach the principles of the Word and leave the judging of ultimate destiny with God.

 

[godrulz]

No member of the Trinity can fellowship with a believer having sin in his life. Sin destroys our temporal fellowship with the Lord, but cannot jeopardize our eternal relationship with Him. Confessing or naming our known sins to God the Father, is the only means compatible with grace for restoration of fellowship with God and the filling of the Holy Spirit.

You are OSAS? Does this mean one can be a Christian Satanist/Atheist and go to heaven based on a former profession that is no longer true?!

 

[godrulz]

Unfortunately what you preach is in line with what thousands of christians and pastors believe around the world. it is utter blasphemy! you can take your two circles theory and shove it straight to hell where it belongs. you cannot prove your out of fellowship theory nor your filling of the Spirit theory either. as of right now you are on ignore . i will press view post when i am curious, otherwise, consider yourself ignored.

:baby: :deadhorse:

 

[godrulz]

Nang, you can’t use Hebrews to teach Church Age doctrine.

At the time it was written, Hebrews applied to Jews who believed Christ was the Messiah before the Church Age doctrines were fully known and established in Acts 15.

However, now, Hebrews speaks directly to Hebrews who will be alive during the Tribulation.

I will have to side with Nang and her buddy R.C. Sproul who said he would take Hebrews with him if it is the only book on an island. Hebrews and Romans are equally magna carta's of gospel truth for the Church. Just because Hebrews was in a context for Jewish Christians does not mean it was not church truth. It certainly is not just for Tribulation saints in the future. MAD misses the boat on basic NT theology.

 

[godrulz]

In I Cor. 14, we must interpret whether Paul is talking about public or private tongues (corporate vs individual setting) since both are mentioned (even changing back and forth in discussion).

In Gal. 1-2, we must interpret whether Paul is talking about true or false gospels, since both are referred to in the chapters.

In I John, we must note whether any given verse is about believers or unbelievers, since it flip flops (as is common with John's circular style in contrast to Paul's linear style).

I still stake my bets that I Jn. 1:9 is a sanctification issue for believers, not a justification issue for unbelievers. We must be careful in the surrounding verses to know when believer vs unbeliever is talked about. I Jn. 2:2 even makes a distinction between our sins (a good verse to show that the atonement is not limited like in Calvinism).

 

[tetelestai]

You are OSAS? Does this mean one can be a Christian Satanist/Atheist and go to heaven based on a former profession that is no longer true?!

You and I have contrasting views on this subject. I am pro-OSAS, and you believe a believer can loser his or her salvation if they become an apostate, or commit the sin of unbelief after salvation. (please correct me if this is wrong)

I believe that at the moment of regeneration the new believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, eternally sealed, part of the Body of Christ, and OSAS.

What has been discussed in this thread is relevant to your question, and a good point can be made from your question.

When a believer falls out of fellowship with God (outside the bottom circle if you read my circle analogy), or walks in darkness, or is in the state of reversionism. God disciplines the believer. The purpose of the discipline is to get the believer back in temporal fellowship with God (back in the bottom circle), or back to walking in the light.

God’s discipline can be severe, especially when the believer continues to walk in darkness, or continues to commit the same sin over and over again without even acknowledging that he or she is sinning (a state of reversionism).

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.(1 John 5:16)

(What does it mean when John says “God will give him life” if he or she is already a believer)?

Here John is saying that when believers see a fellow believer walk in darkness (out of the bottom circle) they should pray for such believer. The praying for a fellow believer will help get the believer back into temporal fellowship with God (back in the bottom circle)

However John also brings up the sin unto death. There is a point when a believer continues to walk in darkness (out of the bottom circle), a continued state of reversionism, where God will take the believers life. This is God’s discipline in its most severe form. The believer still goes to Heaven. and has eternal life.

To answer your question, I believe a believer can never become a satan worshiper, because God’s discipline will guide the believer back into the light (back into the bottom circle), or God will take the believers life (sin unto death) before satan worshiping can ever happen.

If there are satan worshipers walking around today that say they used to be a Christian, I do not believe they were ever really saved in the first place. I know this sounds Calvinistic (elect/reprobate), but I cannot believe that a satan worshiper used to be a believer.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:baby: :deadhorse:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1699532&postcount=15

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

If they are not saved, their lives are evidence of this.

Many atheists live better moral lives than Christians. What does this prove?

 

[voltaire]

JCWR, in your post 235 you restated much more clearly what i was trying to tell jerry at the beginning of this thread. we dont tell prospective converts to confess their sins in order to be saved. but, that is not what John is saying in verse 9. he is clearly talking about salvation because he says Christ will forgive all our sins. if it was a verse to believers telling them how to be restored to fellowship with God , he would not mention anything about forgiveness of sins. he would simply say that we will be cleansed of all unrighteousness if we confess our sins.
so John is not telling believers that they must confess sins in order to be forgiven. he is reminding believers that they became christians by recognizing that they were sinners in need of Christs salvation. he is showing how they are not in fellowship with those who walk in darkness--- those who have never recognized that they are sinners.

 

[tetelestai]

Obviously, then, the verse is a teaching describing the moment of salvation. And it is clearly not intended to mean the person being saved must enumerate all their sins; instead the person recognizes their current state of enmity towards God and is forgiven.

Your Baptist roots are showing. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. If anyone adds anything to faith and faith alone, then it is faith plus works for salvation.

Stating that a person needs to “recognize their current state of enmity towards God” is adding something to faith and faith alone for salvation. What next, does the just saved believer have to be baptized?

Lets look at 1 John 1:9 again: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Nobody would tell an unbeliever to confess their sins. This would make no sense.

Nobody would tell a new believer at the moment of salvation to confess their sins since this would add works to salvation. Remember, faith and faith alone.

So who is John telling to confess their sins? It has to be believers. Confessing sins cannot be to unbelievers, and confessing sins has nothing to do with salvation, the only group of people left is believers.

At the moment of salvation, the regenerated believer is not only indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but is forgiven of all past sins. This new believer does not have to list all of their past sins. If someone was 75 years old when they became saved, imagine how long it would take for them to go back and confess all of their sins since the age of accountability. This would be ridicules.

The reason the just saved believer is forgiven of all past sins is so that the just saved believer can be in fellowship with God, and receive the Holy Spirit. The just saved believer is walking in the light (in the bottom circle).

However, the just saved believer still has the old sin nature even though he or she has just been saved, and even though he or she has received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the new believer is going to sin at some time in the near future.

When that new believer commits his or her first sin after being saved, the believer will lose temporal fellowship with the Lord. The believer will be walking in the dark (out of the bottom circle), the Holy Spirit is squelched. The believer needs to name all known sins to God to get back into temporal fellowship with God (back in the bottom circle).

Again, if confessing sins is not to unbelievers, and confessing sins cannot have anything to do with salvation, then who could John be telling to confess sins?