Creation vs. Evolution

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DavisBJ

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The problem for you Davis is that rely on scientists who start with the conclusion then look for an explanation to fit that...no matter how counter intuitive...no matter how unscientific. There are much better explanations for C14 dates, ice core samples etc that align with the absolute truth... God's Word.
In part of my career I was hired by a geology company to assist with some work. We were rather specialized, in two geology-related fields. One of those fields was relative to highly technical studies that had huge safety implications (and while I was there, one man was killed, and we were tasked with finding what unexpected geological issue caused his death). The other field was in support of a network of mega-million dollar geology projects that needed our expertise. In neither case did we have the option of starting with a “conclusion then look for an explanation to fit that.” If we had, more people would have died, and companies gone bankrupt. And over the years that I was there, I paid particular attention to the underlying assumptions that the PhD geologists in our company used. And I can assure you, you are a blatant liar.
 
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Jose Fly

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I have to once again wonder why our young-earth creationists want that stamp of scientifically valid so much? Isn't the Word of God sufficient? Why do you seek man's validation?
 

Rosenritter

New member
But that assumption (as R.H. Brown showed) forces the answer to be the one that you want. It is not asking nature, it is dictating to nature. Any goofball religion on earth can win with a stacked deck.

I could (and actually have) referred those same sites to active scientists. Never once have I had any of them ask me what I think the sites were saying. Real scientists are expected to know how science works, and to read scientific information without handholding. If those sites are as devoid of clearly expressed relevant information as you feel they are, then please quit pretending you actually know science.

Your question was relative to atmospheric C14 concentrations based on no atmospheric C14 before Adam. Of course none of the sites directly address that, because they are scientific sites, not promoters of a minor branch of one of the world’s religions. Zulu warrior Kunte Kinte thinks those sites should address the question of the source of the carbon in the diamond eye of the African God Mugumbo. You are just so silly.

I have a much better suggestion. In your eyes, I am a hostile witness, and likely to put my spin on any explanation I might give. So instead, bypass me and go to the sources themselves. Do a bit of research, find out what factors limit how far back ice-core dating is reliable. It will take some time and effort, but that is a price you have to pay for any scientific subject you really want to understand. After a few days, a week, a month, whenever, comeback here and you tell us specifically why you agree/disagree with proposed ice-core dates.

OK, I'll summarize. None of those sites actually addressed my question, but any "scientist" that holds your agenda wouldn't have cross-examined you because they wouldn't have had my question anyway. So I received some personal attacks from several people before I actually walked us through to that admission?

My point being is that all of those suppositions within the sites are still based on unproven assumptions, such as there even being "800,000 years" that can be measured. Layers of ice are layers of ice, and without a witness to prove when it was laid (or the equivalent) those numbers remain made up or based on something made up down the line.

I had mentioned an example with less math. This isn't so much proving the age of the earth or the solar system, but interesting none the less and relevant in its own fashion. Particularly I would like to hear what you might have to say regarding the motions of the planets and their satellites.

It is generally well accepted today that the earth moves around the sun so let's accept this model. If we regard the sun as being a stationary point of reference, orientate ourselves so that the North Pole is roughly "up", then the earth orbits around the sun in a counterclockwise direction. This is not considered controversial.

Likewise, if we consider the direction of the earth's orbit around the sun, it also spins in a similar counterclockwise fashion. The moon also orbits around the earth counterclockwise, and has a counterclockwise spin. I am not aware of any fringe groups that would claim otherwise, this still remains generally accepted fact. The interpretation of these facts may differ between you and me, however.

From my perspective and theory, the direction and spin of these bodies can be explained simply because "God chose to do it that way" without needing further explanation. After all, I believe in special creation, and although processes may have been used from which these motions would be the inevitable result, it is not a limiting factor. I might expect that you might reason differently. Without an intelligent hand forming the cosmos, you might say that the earth was formed from a solidified mass of matter, and that the spin and orbits of the earth and its moon match the rotation of the sun because of a behavior described as the "preservation of angular momentum." That is, you would say it is that way because it has to be that way and could not have been formed differently.

I apologize if this seems to be putting words in your mouth (or presuming thoughts in your head) but this is the general theory usually adopted by those that rely on a "big bang" theory to explain why we have sun, moon, and stars, of which our earth is but a small part. So here is where the interesting part comes in. If the solar system was formed from a solidified mass of spinning gas, then one would expect the orbits and rotations to all proceed in the same direction. Preservation of angular momentum at work. But... there's an exception. Or two. Or even a few more.

This (non-creationist) site even admits this quickly, in passing, before skipping through to its "big bang" explanation, explaining that the solar system was formed from a pancake of gas and that the directions must be the result of this event, citing "conservation of angular momentum.

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2010/10/07/counterclockwise-but-there-are/

Were you to reference Wikipedia, what I am describing is found under the entry for "Retrograde motion" Venus rotates backwards (clockwise) for example. Uranus also has a backwards spin while having its own unique axial direction. But this doesn't stop with just planets, because there are various moons of other planets that even orbit in the opposite direction.

I'll just comment that the observed data doesn't seem to fit well within the "God didn't do it" theory. I've seen proposed explanations such as "a giant object must have zoomed in and hit it hard enough to flip it upside down" ... but what are the probabilities? And not just for one planet, but two of them, plus many other moons? Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune all have moons that travel in opposite directions. To me it looks like a signature, sort of a reminder that "someone did this."

Here's the explanation cited by that site I pulled earlier for example:
So almost everything in the Solar System revolves and rotates counterclockwise (from the North), but Venus? Uranus? We just don’t get it, at least, not yet. Even in something as well-studied as our Solar System, we still have plenty of unexplained mysteries.
 

Rosenritter

New member
This.....?...
Researchers have found a reason for the puzzling survival of soft tissue and collagen in dinosaur bones - the bones are younger than anyone ever guessed. *Carbon-14 (C-14) dating of multiple samples of bone from 8 dinosaurs found in Texas, Alaska, Colorado, and Montana revealed that they are only 22,000 to 39,000 years old.

Members of the Paleochronology group presented their findings at the 2012 Western Pacific Geophysics Meeting in Singapore, August 13-17, a conference of the American Geophysical Union (AGU) and the Asia Oceania Geosciences Society (AOGS).

Since dinosaurs are thought to be over 65 million years old, the news is stunning - and more than some can tolerate. *After the AOGS-AGU conference in Singapore, the abstract was removed from the conference website by two chairmen because they could not accept the findings.**Unwilling to challenge the data openly, they erased the report from public view without a word to the authors. *When the authors inquired, they received this letter:......

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation48.html

"Unknown conditions in the past can't be calibrated for...
(Strength / weakness of solar rays, earths magnetic field, global fllods etc)

The global flood would have drastically effected the ratio....
-With all vegetation dead...much buried starting to form coal and oil...
The C14 would increase at this time relative to the C12.
Also effecting the ratio at this time would be volcanic activity around the earth emitting lots of CO2 without the normal C14

Creationist researchers figure that Preflood oganisms although only 4500 years old would C14 date somewhere near 40,000 years.*
(Brown, R.H./ Creation Research Society Quarterly/ 'Correlation of C-14 age with real time')"

They fired that guy for publishing the data on the soft tissue in the Triceratops horn. You wouldn't want anyone else to have access to that information, it would be a catastrophe.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I have to once again wonder why our young-earth creationists want that stamp of scientifically valid so much? Isn't the Word of God sufficient? Why do you seek man's validation?

Actually, isn't it the other way around? Why did you choose to frequent a theology forum? The very nature of the site, "Theology" means the study of God. You are on a crusade to declare there is no God with religious-like fervor. Why do you seek validation from Theists? If I sought out an atheist site and was fighting with folks there, I might be accused of trolling. In fact if I spoke as some others on here, with abusive tirades, I would be rightly classified so.

Regardless, to answer your question, you are doing a disservice to the institution of science. You are confusing (atheist/humanist) philosophy and calling that science. What you claim hasn't been proven by experimentation, nor does it contribute to technology, and it does not further useful research. Science should be the study of the world and its laws, of which we theists have a special fondness. True science wouldn't fire a person for publishing data on soft dinosaur tissue, for example... that's more in line with what you would expect of a biased religious zealot.
 

Stripe

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Asking why you choose Brown over Baumgardner is a reasonable question, not a lie.

Of course, that's not the question you asked.

You switched to this one when you got exposed as a troll.

You were being a troll to cover for your Darwinist ally's mistake.

Part of your cover was to imply error on my part instead of doing the rational thing and simply asking Fly to slightly amend his terminology.

That's it: A simple edit to one post would have saved pages of nonsense back and forth.

But Darwinists prefer senseless prattle to anything that even appears to threaten their precious religion.
 
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Stuu

New member
1. The proponents of Zeus do not proclaim him to be an "only God."
2. Zeus exists within the Greek mythology, which proclaims Erebus, Gaea, etc to have created our world.

Therefore, by definition, Zeus is not the One God that created all things. If there is a One God that created all things, it cannot be Zeus. So unless you were simply trolling, you might want to change your question slightly or find a more suitable applicant. Perhaps, "Why would Erebus not be the God that created all things" or "Why is Allah not the one God?"

Less trolling and more focused questions would go a long ways on this forum.
I'm very grateful for your lecture.

But aren't you begging the question of the 'one creator god'? And Zeus will still have an overseeing role no matter the historical order of events. Best to give credit to the whole polytheistic Classical pantheon, after all the origins of your own belief system lie in the polytheism of the ancient Jews, which was assimilated by the early monotheists. Nasty business, but then christianity is a nasty business so that's consistent at least.

Stuart
 

Crucible

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I have to once again wonder why our young-earth creationists want that stamp of scientifically valid so much? Isn't the Word of God sufficient? Why do you seek man's validation?

They don't seek validation, they seek retaliation to your blasphemy of the Maker. They don't want their children being taught that chance rather than God made man.

It's not rocket science-
 

DavisBJ

New member
… My point being is that all of those suppositions within the sites are still based on unproven assumptions, such as there even being "800,000 years" that can be measured. Layers of ice are layers of ice, and without a witness to prove when it was laid (or the equivalent) those numbers remain made up or based on something made up down the line.
And thus you make it clear that you are not interested in actually doing as I recommended, and looking into how ice-core dating works, but rather prefer the comfort of your religious fantasy. Since you are just the latest incarnation of a rather long list of religious snake-oil salesmen, I have serious reservations about continuing to stroke your religious ego. I shall not deprive you of your narcotic reliance on an ancient creation fable handed down from a scientifically ignorant nomadic tribe.
I had mentioned an example with less math. This isn't so much proving the age of the earth or the solar system, but interesting none the less and relevant in its own fashion. Particularly I would like to hear what you might have to say regarding the motions of the planets and their satellites.

It is generally well accepted today that the earth moves around the sun so let's accept this model. If we regard the sun as being a stationary point of reference, orientate ourselves so that the North Pole is roughly "up", then the earth orbits around the sun in a counterclockwise direction. This is not considered controversial.

Likewise, if we consider the direction of the earth's orbit around the sun, it also spins in a similar counterclockwise fashion. The moon also orbits around the earth counterclockwise, and has a counterclockwise spin. I am not aware of any fringe groups that would claim otherwise, this still remains generally accepted fact. The interpretation of these facts may differ between you and me, however.

From my perspective and theory, the direction and spin of these bodies can be explained simply because "God chose to do it that way" without needing further explanation. After all, I believe in special creation, and although processes may have been used from which these motions would be the inevitable result, it is not a limiting factor. I might expect that you might reason differently. Without an intelligent hand forming the cosmos, you might say that the earth was formed from a solidified mass of matter, and that the spin and orbits of the earth and its moon match the rotation of the sun because of a behavior described as the "preservation of angular momentum." That is, you would say it is that way because it has to be that way and could not have been formed differently.

I apologize if this seems to be putting words in your mouth (or presuming thoughts in your head) but this is the general theory usually adopted by those that rely on a "big bang" theory to explain why we have sun, moon, and stars, of which our earth is but a small part. So here is where the interesting part comes in. If the solar system was formed from a solidified mass of spinning gas, then one would expect the orbits and rotations to all proceed in the same direction. Preservation of angular momentum at work. But... there's an exception. Or two. Or even a few more.

This (non-creationist) site even admits this quickly, in passing, before skipping through to its "big bang" explanation, explaining that the solar system was formed from a pancake of gas and that the directions must be the result of this event, citing "conservation of angular momentum.

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2010/10/07/counterclockwise-but-there-are/

Were you to reference Wikipedia, what I am describing is found under the entry for "Retrograde motion" Venus rotates backwards (clockwise) for example. Uranus also has a backwards spin while having its own unique axial direction. But this doesn't stop with just planets, because there are various moons of other planets that even orbit in the opposite direction.

I'll just comment that the observed data doesn't seem to fit well within the "God didn't do it" theory. I've seen proposed explanations such as "a giant object must have zoomed in and hit it hard enough to flip it upside down" ... but what are the probabilities? And not just for one planet, but two of them, plus many other moons? Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune all have moons that travel in opposite directions. To me it looks like a signature, sort of a reminder that "someone did this."
This subject was covered in some detail in a TOL thread over a decade ago. But since you are averse to actually reading technical information that might give you understandings you seem wont to avoid, I am not going to link to it right now. I am going to limit myself to one observation and posing one question.

You say
From my perspective and theory, the direction and spin of these bodies can be explained simply because "God chose to do it that way" without needing further explanation. After all, I believe in special creation, and although processes may have been used from which these motions would be the inevitable result, it is not a limiting factor. I might expect that you might reason differently. Without an intelligent hand forming the cosmos, you might say that the earth was formed from a solidified mass of matter, and that the spin and orbits of the earth and its moon match the rotation of the sun because of a behavior described as the "preservation of angular momentum." That is, you would say it is that way because it has to be that way and could not have been formed differently.
It appears that your God, in numerous aspects of dealing with this world, seems to have sat back and thought, “If I let nature do its thing, what would happen?” Once He has sufficiently seen how nature by itself would act, He then declares: “That’s the way I am going to do it too.” The laws of physics all by themselves tell us what shape the diffuse rotating nebular cloud must form. But God, who should have the option of setting up orbits in any pattern that pleases His fancy decides to make it look just like nature would have. Which means that God might just as well have been off having tea with Mrs. God and just let nature do the job. He was just a no-value added complication to the process. Occam’s razor, anyone?

Question – can you state in simple, accurate terms what the law of conservation of angular momentum actually says?
 

DavisBJ

New member
Of course, that's not the question you asked.

You switched to this one when you got exposed as a troll.

You were being a troll to cover for your Darwinist ally's mistake.

Part of your cover was to imply error on my part instead of doing the rational thing and simply asking Fly to slightly amend his terminology.

That's it: A simple edit to one post would have saved pages of nonsense back and forth.

But Darwinists prefer senseless prattle to anything that even appears to threaten their precious religion.
Asking why you choose Brown over Baumgardner is a reasonable question.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear 6days,

Where ya' been?? How are you doing?? I hope that all is fine with you and that you are healthy. I chatted with Alwight/Alan the other day and they are going to try Radiation Therapy on him. I hope it does the trick. He's terminal without many months to live, so hopefully this radiation and my prayers to God will help out. I beat my cancer so far. I see that everyone here is busy with each other so I don't butt in...yet. I'm proud of everyone, because they are learning. Hey. whatever happened to Hedshaker? I haven't heard from him in a while. He's probably glad about Britain's cessation from the EU. Most likely keeping busy with that for now. I think that Texas wants to succeed from us. Texas would be a country, like Mexico. Heeeheeeeh!! Too funny!! Well, it's getting late and slumber calls. It's been a day. Will chat with you again later!!

Much Love & A Visit From The Holy Ghost Would Be Precious And SOOO Welcome!!

Michael
 

6days

New member
In part of my career I was hired by a geology company to assist with some work. We were rather specialized, in two geology-related fields. One of those fields was relative to highly technical studies that had huge safety implications (and while I was there, one man was killed, and we were tasked with finding what unexpected geological issue caused his death). The other field was in support of a network of mega-million dollar geology projects that needed our expertise. In neither case did we have the option of starting with a “conclusion then look for an explanation to fit that.” If we had, more people would have died, and companies gone bankrupt. And over the years that I was there, I paid particular attention to the underlying assumptions that the PhD geologists in our company used. And I can assure you, you are a blatant liar.
Wooooo.....🙃
We disagree. There is nobody who is a blank slate when it comes to origins. Everyone starts with a bias. C14 dates that don't give expected results are rejected, and tried to be understood within that bias view.
 

6days

New member
No. You haven't read The God Delusion. You have little idea what Richard Dawkins has said.
Stuart
You are partially correct. I have not read that book. However, I have read things Dawkins has said about Kurt Wise. Either Dawkins has lied about Kurt Wise in that book ....or you misrepresented Dawkins. I'm assuming the 'mistake' is yours since you won't quote exactly what Dawkins says. Kurt Wise has clearly stated there is evidence supporting the Biblical creation account.
 
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