Creation vs. Evolution

[Jose Fly]

It will always boil down to faith

For you and those like you, yes it will.

I want to see every animal's complete fossil record.

Gee...nothing unreasonable about that.

 

[DavisBJ]

Gone a few days, back now. I want to clean up some loose ends in this thread.

…Duane Gish passed away 2 years ago. He was a giant in defending the truth of Gods Word against evolutionists. Some say that he won every debate because he would argue from science against ev(ol)utionists …

6days, you portray Gish as a sort of King Kong in the Creationist debate world. He debated and published for decades. He was academically trained, and you say he was eminently successful in defeating evolution because he “would argue from science”. It would be expected that such an accomplished scientist would leave a lasting legacy in his advancement of science. Where is it? I cannot find a single advancement or new understanding in science today that I can trace back to Gish. Can you supply something?

If not, then it seems that his popularity among creationists in debates was far more a product of style and showmanship than of scientific substance. Is that all he was – a sort of Bill Cosby who greatest success was in suckering all of his admiring followers?

 

[DavisBJ]

Evolutionists were asking for proof of Creation, so here goes.

The Cambrian explosion has all the hallmarks of a creation event, and none of the hallmarks of an evolutionary event. Even Darwin felt the absence of Pre-cambrian precursor species was a huge downer to his theory. He hoped time would provide the missing links. Time has passed.
…
Summary
In the Lower Cambrian, fossil representatives of all known animal phyla), which have hard parts, occur almost simultaneously in a large variety of forms and over a wide geographical area. In comparison, the underlying Precambrian rocks contain few multicellular organisms, of which only a few could be interpreted as a precursors to Cambrian forms. The sudden appearance of so many different blueprints (different phyla) at the beginning of the fossil record is also an enigma for evolutionary biologists."

Have you read: “Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why it Matters”, by Donald R Prothero?

An extract from a review of the book:

Since the 1940s there has been a steady increase in discoveries of soft-bodied fossils and microfossils from the Precambrian, including the famous metazoan radiation of the late Precambrian, with its now world-wide Ediacaran faunas. It is also clear that the profusion of hard-bodied fossils such as trilobites, brachiopods, and sponge-like archaeocyathids that are so apparent in rocks came about 25 million years after the beginning of the Cambrian, and was preceded by a reasonably diverse fauna of small shelly fossils that had long been ignored. Thus the Cambrian explosion turns out to be more apparent than real, and another creationist canard bites the dust!​

 

[iouae]

Have you read: “Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why it Matters”, by Donald R Prothero?

An extract from a review of the book:

Since the 1940s there has been a steady increase in discoveries of soft-bodied fossils and microfossils from the Precambrian, including the famous metazoan radiation of the late Precambrian, with its now world-wide Ediacaran faunas. It is also clear that the profusion of hard-bodied fossils such as trilobites, brachiopods, and sponge-like archaeocyathids that are so apparent in rocks came about 25 million years after the beginning of the Cambrian, and was preceded by a reasonably diverse fauna of small shelly fossils that had long been ignored. Thus the Cambrian explosion turns out to be more apparent than real, and another creationist canard bites the dust!​

The quote you give tells us there was life in the Pre-cambrian, which we already know. What your quote does NOT address is that all the animal Phyla arise in the Cambrian, (excluding the sponges and Coelenterates), which my chart showed. Thus his last sentence is pure puff and bluff. Unless he has more to add.

I KNOW there was life in the Pre-cambrian. Science tells us so.
This was when the great Oxygen Factory got going. God began to terraform earth. It had no atmospheric oxygen as yet, so He sowed the iron rich seas with algae to make oxygen. At first the oxygen combined with the iron, later the excess oxygenated the atmosphere. Only then could animals live. In the meantime, God kept doing what He had been doing all along, being in no hurry as usual. Billions of years mean nothing to Him.

Here is an extract of changes to the Pre-cambrian seas and atmosphere, from http://www.britannica.com/science/Precambrian-time



EVOLUTION OF THE ATMOSPHERE AND OCEAN
During the long course of Precambrian time, the climatic conditions of the Earth changed considerably. Evidence of this can be seen in the sedimentary record, which documents appreciable changes in the composition of the atmosphere and oceans over time.

OXYGENATION OF THE ATMOSPHERE
Earth almost certainly possessed a reducing atmosphere before 2.5 billion years ago. The Sun’s radiation produced organic compounds from reducing gases—methane (CH4) and ammonia (NH3). The minerals uraninite (UO2) and pyrite (FeS2) are easily destroyed in an oxidizing atmosphere; confirmation of a reducing atmosphere is provided by unoxidized grains of these minerals in 3.0-billion-year-old sediments. However, the presence of many types of filamentous microfossils dated to 3.45 billion years ago in the cherts of the Pilbara region suggests that photosynthesis had begun to release oxygen into the atmosphere by that time. The presence of fossil molecules in the cell walls of 2.5-billion year-old blue-green algae (cyanobacteria) establishes the existence of rare oxygen-producing organisms by that period.

Oceans of the Archean Eon (4.0 to 2.5 billion years ago) contained much volcanic-derived ferrous iron (Fe2+), which was deposited as hematite (Fe2O3) in BIFs. The oxygen that combined the ferrous iron was provided as a waste product of cyanobacterial metabolism. A major burst in the deposition of BIFs from 3.1 billion to 2.5 billion years ago—peaking about 2.7 billion years ago—cleared the oceans of ferrous iron. This enabled the atmospheric oxygen level to increase appreciably. By the time of the widespread appearance of eukaryotes at 1.8 billion years ago, oxygen concentration had risen to 10 percent of present atmospheric level (PAL). These relatively high concentrations were sufficient for oxidative weathering to take place, as evidenced by hematite-rich fossil soils (paleosols) and red beds (sandstones with hematite-coated quartz grains). A second major peak, which raised atmospheric oxygen levels to 50 percent PAL, was reached by 600 million years ago. It was denoted by the first appearance of animal life (metazoans) requiring sufficient oxygen for the production of collagen and the subsequent formation of skeletons. Furthermore, in the stratosphere during the Precambrian, free oxygen began to form a layer of ozone (O3), which currently acts as a protective shield against the Sun’s ultraviolet rays.

 

[Jose Fly]

Have you read: “Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why it Matters”, by Donald R Prothero?

An extract from a review of the book:

Since the 1940s there has been a steady increase in discoveries of soft-bodied fossils and microfossils from the Precambrian, including the famous metazoan radiation of the late Precambrian, with its now world-wide Ediacaran faunas. It is also clear that the profusion of hard-bodied fossils such as trilobites, brachiopods, and sponge-like archaeocyathids that are so apparent in rocks came about 25 million years after the beginning of the Cambrian, and was preceded by a reasonably diverse fauna of small shelly fossils that had long been ignored. Thus the Cambrian explosion turns out to be more apparent than real, and another creationist canard bites the dust!​

You've been at this for a while now, so surely you recognize the folly of giving scientific links, excerpts, data, information, etc. to creationists? All they do is look for excuses to dismiss it.

 

[DavisBJ]

...The eyewitnees account in Geneis is the Creator Himself. "All scripture is given by God"*

6days, I can’t find a single source that says anything about God personally writing Genesis. Genesis is loaded with passages like “and God saw …”, “and God made …”, “and God said” – NOT “and I saw …”, “and I made …”, “and I said”. Probably even in Canada you might know the difference between first-person speech and third-person speech?

Further, there seems to be a significant scholarly dispute over what human actually authored that first book in the Bible. You do understand that (at least in the US) eyewitness testimony has to be presented by the eye-witness? Not through a middle-man?

 

[patrick jane]

6days, I can’t find a single source that says anything about God personally writing Genesis. Genesis is loaded with passages like “and God saw …”, “and God made …”, “and God said” – NOT “and I saw …”, “and I made …”, “and I said”. Probably even in Canada you might know the difference between first-person speech and third-person speech?

Further, there seems to be a significant scholarly dispute over what human actually authored that first book in the Bible. You do understand that (at least in the US) eyewitness testimony has to be presented by the eye-witness? Not through a middle-man?

Moses wrote it directly FROM God

 

[DavisBJ]

The quote you give tells us there was life in the Pre-cambrian, which we already know.

I don’t know what prompted that. Of course we already knew there was life in the Precambrian. Is your reading comprehension so defective that you missed this in that first sentence: “steady increase in discoveries of soft-bodied fossils and microfossils”?

What your quote does NOT address is that all the animal Phyla arise in the Cambrian, (excluding the sponges and Coelenterates), which my chart showed. Thus his last sentence is pure puff and bluff. Unless he has more to add.

Yeah, considering that what I quoted was a snippet of a preview of one chapter of a book written fairly recently by a Professor of Paleontology, there is a whole lot more in the book itself. You ought to buy and read it, or do you like to offer criticism from a stance of ignorance?

I KNOW there was life in the Pre-cambrian. Science tells us so.

This was when the great Oxygen Factory got going. God began to terraform earth. It had no atmospheric oxygen as yet, so He sowed the iron rich seas with algae to make oxygen. At first the oxygen combined with the iron, later the excess oxygenated the atmosphere. Only then could animals live. In the meantime, God kept doing what He had been doing all along, being in no hurry as usual. Billions of years mean nothing to Him. …

You know what else science shows? It shows that if you bottled your God into a jar and sat Him on a dusty shelf for a few million years, the same things you describe about oxygen and terraforming would have happened anyway. Ever hears of Occam’s Razor? God is an unneeded assumption in the whole process.

 

[alwight]

It will always boil down to faith since unlike the cosmos where we can see back in time billions of years, in this case we Creationists, and you evolutionists must look at the same set of fossils, and ask honestly, does this resemble creation or does it more closely resemble evolution?

My main reason for rejecting evolution is the absence of missing links.
They say that 99% of all animals which have ever lived are now extinct. It is not good enough to show me three or four animals with supposed complete fossil records. I want to see every animal's complete fossil record.

There'll be no convincing you then, no matter what I say.
Kurt Wise is a honest YEC who knows his science, who also knows about more links than I do and admits them.

"Darwin’s third expectation - of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates - has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacdontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation - of stratomorphic series - has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and
Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory.
Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT [be] said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds."

For him Genesis trumps his own science though he doesn't pretend otherwise. Perhaps some people are just hardwired to believe whatever the evidence?

 

[DavisBJ]

Moses wrote it directly FROM God

Still a middleman. Not eyewitness testimony.

 

[Jose Fly]

Kurt Wise is a honest YEC who knows his science, who also knows about more links than I do and admits them.

Wise is honest and open about his intellectually dishonest approach to science. I don't see that as a positive.

 

[Hedshaker]

Moses wrote it directly FROM God

Regarding the old testament......


Authorship of the Bible

According to Rabbinic tradition the five books of the Torah were written by Moses, with the exception of the last eight verses of Deuteronomy which describe his death. Today, the majority of scholars agree that the Pentateuch does not have a single author, and that its composition took place over centuries.

 

[alwight]

Wise is honest and open about his intellectually dishonest approach to science. I don't see that as a positive.

Agreed, but I don't know how he can, or perhaps that doesn't bother him for some reason? :liberals:

 

[Jose Fly]

Agreed, but I don't know how he can, or perhaps that doesn't bother him for some reason? :liberals:

IMO, it's a matter of values. Wise seems to value loyalty and adherence to his faith over all else. If that causes him to engage in intellectual dishonesty, so be it.

 

[iouae]

I don’t know what prompted that. Of course we already knew there was life in the Precambrian. Is your reading comprehension so defective that you missed this in that first sentence: “steady increase in discoveries of soft-bodied fossils and microfossils”?

So??

Yeah, considering that what I quoted was a snippet of a preview of one chapter of a book written fairly recently by a Professor of Paleontology, there is a whole lot more in the book itself. You ought to buy and read it, or do you like to offer criticism from a stance of ignorance?

I am telling you what I think of the snippet you quoted.
I presume you thought it offered some sort of proof.
It did not.
Why don't you read your own book and quote the relevant sections, since I cannot be expected to go out and buy everything which is recommended, especially since he smugly seemed to have rebuffed creationists with what looked like a weak argument. But please quote more.

You know what else science shows? It shows that if you bottled your God into a jar and sat Him on a dusty shelf for a few million years, the same things you describe about oxygen and terraforming would have happened anyway. Ever hears of Occam’s Razor? God is an unneeded assumption in the whole process.

Occam's razor tells us to choose the simpler of two choices.
To me Creation can be seen in the Cambrian Explosion, acknowledged by almost all palaeontological sources as a veritable explosion. And certainly the animal Phyla all came into being first, quite opposite to Darwins expectation of species first then genera then families, then classes etc.
So yep. Occam on my side too since evolution offers NO solution.

 

[iouae]

There'll be no convincing you then, no matter what I say.

What percentage of animals in the fossil record have their connecting or missing links? 1%?
And these are not proven, because how could you prove it?
They could equally be proof of a God using the same design which works in multiple animals. Thus all Vertebrates have that design, because it works.

I don't expect to convince you, but is that not what we do, try?
And a compelling argument helps.

Kurt Wise is a honest YEC who knows his science, who also knows about more links than I do and admits them.

"Darwin’s third expectation - of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates - has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacdontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation - of stratomorphic series - has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and
Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory.
Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT [be] said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds."

For him Genesis trumps his own science though he doesn't pretend otherwise. Perhaps some people are just hardwired to believe whatever the evidence?

I know little of Kurt Wise, other than that he is a YEC so I disagree with him already.
And what I have been addressing is the sudden emergence of the mammals in the Cenozoic and the sudden emergence of Phyla in the Cambrian, so the Kurt Wise quote, while interesting, does not address these issues. I want the links BEFORE the first Eocene mammals, and before the Cambrian animals, not the easy to fudge ones afterwards.

 

[Crucible]

Man rejects God, man sees ape. All of a sudden, we came from apes.

All the found fossils on Earth could fit in a barn.

 

[alwight]

What percentage of animals in the fossil record have their connecting or missing links? 1%?
And these are not proven, because how could you prove it?
They could equally be proof of a God using the same design which works in multiple animals. Thus all Vertebrates have that design, because it works.

All I can say is that I am unaware of any supernatural impact on this world and my life, I make my conclusions from evidence and hopefully rational thinking.
Without anything other than observations of life today, Darwinian evolution seems to make sense to me as a natural theory. With the evidential support it has from all natural sciences I find it utterly compelling even if there are many gaps yet to be filled.

If there were any evidence that complex life could suddenly appear out of thin air then I would have to rethink.
But what do we mean by sudden?
In geological terms a "sudden" change would often still amount to plenty of time for evolutionary adaptions to take place which from a human timescale probably wouldn't be sudden at all.
Fossils are only snapshots and cannot tell the whole story or how sudden changes really took. So Creatures appearing "suddenly" probably were in fact still very gradual in human terms. Creationists and "evolutionists" probably have their own version of "sudden", but I don't accept that anything in life ever happened as suddenly as creationists would have us all believe. That just isn't what happens in a natural world.

I don't expect to convince you, but is that not what we do, try?
And a compelling argument helps.

We can try.

I know little of Kurt Wise, other than that he is a YEC so I disagree with him already.
And what I have been addressing is the sudden emergence of the mammals in the Cenozoic and the sudden emergence of Phyla in the Cambrian, so the Kurt Wise quote, while interesting, does not address these issues. I want the links BEFORE the first Eocene mammals, and before the Cambrian animals, not the easy to fudge ones afterwards.

What do you mean by "sudden"?
Do you think that complex creatures can instantly appear or could relatively rapid evolutionary adaptions that may well have produced no helpful fossil not have accounted for an apparently "sudden" appearance? Both gradualism and punctuated equilibrium can surely be part of Darwinian evolution imo, it depends on what the selective pressures happen to be.

 

[Jose Fly]

To me Creation can be seen in the Cambrian Explosion, acknowledged by almost all palaeontological sources as a veritable explosion. And certainly the animal Phyla all came into being first, quite opposite to Darwins expectation of species first then genera then families, then classes etc.
So yep. Occam on my side too since evolution offers NO solution.

Wow, that's quite the pronouncement on your part. You must have spent quite a bit of time studying this, right? Tell me....what did you think of Valentine's last work?

They could equally be proof of a God using the same design which works in multiple animals. Thus all Vertebrates have that design, because it works.

Well, by the same token God could have made everything the day before yesterday, and all those memories and histories don't really exist, because God designed it that way to make it work.

 

[6days]

6days, you portray Gish as a sort of King Kong in the Creationist debate world. He debated and published for decades. He was academically trained, and you say he was eminently successful in defeating evolution because he “would argue from science”. It would be expected that such an accomplished scientist would leave a lasting legacy in his advancement of science. Where is it? I cannot find a single advancement or new understanding in science today that I can trace back to Gish. Can you supply something?

Evolutionism and creationism are beliefs about the past. There is no new technology nor medical advancement made due to thos3 belief systems..... Although many of the fields of modern science were founded by a belief that Gods Word was true, and we could and should understand the world around us. Also, re beliefs, there are examples where evolutionary beliefs have slowed scientific progress and harmed people.*


Re. Duane Gish, I have heard testimonies of those who sat in the audience when Gish debated Ian Pilmer. That debate played a role in them accepting Christ as their Savior! Gish did help make a difference for eternity.


Also it was the early Biblical creationists like Morris and Gish who spoke to thousands at conferences around the world encouraging young people to get into the sciences.*