Creation vs. Evolution

[6days]

The problem that you must explain remains the same. Did you find the ocean critters I asked for that can adapt to changing conditions in one generation?

There is no problem Greg.

The thing is we don't know the salinity of the oceans before or after the flood. We don't know the genetic makeup of pre-flood marine life. We don't know if hundreds of species were eliminated in the flood. We don't know if pools of fresh water could remain unmixed with salty water.

We do know that some modern fish can survive in both of today's environments like salmon. We do know that some fish like sticklebacks have the genetic info to adapt rapidly. We do know that adaptation / speciation is a result of losing pre-existing genetic information. We know that many of today's creatures are highly adapted to specific environments and unable to survive changing conditions.*

 

[Greg Jennings]

There is no problem Greg.

The thing is we don't know the salinity of the oceans before or after the flood. We don't know the genetic makeup of pre-flood marine life. We don't know if hundreds of species were eliminated in the flood. We don't know if pools of fresh water could remain unmixed with salty water.

We do know that some modern fish can survive in both of today's environments like salmon. We do know that some fish like sticklebacks have the genetic info to adapt rapidly. We do know that adaptation / speciation is a result of losing pre-existing genetic information. We know that many of today's creatures are highly adapted to specific environments and unable to survive changing conditions.*

So your entire hypothesis rests completely on this unsubstantiated and illogical claim that all ocean life must've had the ability to osmoregulate at will or they all had an ability to evolve drastically over one generation?

6, that's a HUGE problem.

And I'm not sure you're completely grasping the severity of this: it doesn't matter what level of salinity the flooded or pre-flooded ocean was. Whatever it was, it would've been toxic to most of the creatures in it because there are many different salinity levels that creatures live in. Change that level, and you're usually killing off anything without an ability to get out of the water

 

[6days]

So your entire hypothesis rests completely on this unsubstantiated and illogical claim that all ocean life must've had the ability to osmoregulate at will or they all had an ability to evolve drastically over one generation?

6, that's a HUGE problem

Another Jennings strawman.

 

[Greg Jennings]

Another Jennings strawman.

Please explain how for me

Keep in mind that a strawman is a "sham argument set up to be defeated." Since my argument is meant to defeat you and not myself, how is it a strawman?

 

[6days]

Please explain how for me

Keep in mind that a strawman is a "sham argument set up to be defeated." Since my argument is meant to defeat you and not myself, how is it a strawman?

It is misrepresenting someone's argument to shape it in a way you can defeat it... rather than argue against what was really said.

 

[Greg Jennings]

It is misrepresenting someone's argument to shape it in a way you can defeat it... rather than argue against what was really said.

You've admitted that your hypothesis rests on supernatural intervention in order to work. I didn't misrepresent anything. I just pointed out the absurdity of claiming that to be more plausible than an explanation based only on evidence and that has no holes that have to be filled with supernatural influences

 

[6days]

You've admitted that your hypothesis rests on supernatural intervention in order to work. I didn't misrepresent anything. I just pointed out the absurdity of claiming that to be more plausible than an explanation based only on evidence and that has no holes that have to be filled with supernatural influences

It seems that in order to try keep an argument going you have jumped from a straw man fallacy to now... moving the goalposts fallacy.
We were discussing if it would be possible for fish and other marine life to survive a global flood from 4500 years ago.

 

[Greg Jennings]

It seems that in order to try keep an argument going you have jumped from a straw man fallacy to now... moving the goalposts fallacy.
We were discussing if it would be possible for fish and other marine life to survive a global flood from 4500 years ago.

No, but it's clear you're trapped in a logical corner here that you are having trouble deluding yourself out of.

According to you, they must've either all had the ability to withstand all levels of salinity (contradicted by current life) or they all had the ability to adapt to changing salinity in one generation, correct?


Let's just pretend for a second that you're 100% right and all aquatic animals back in flood times had the ability to adapt to changing salinity in one generation. Large whales have a gestation period that is incredibly long. For sperm whales it's 480-590 days. That is way longer than the year you suppose the Biblical flood to have lasted. So if a female whale had been impregnated on the day the flood started, the flood would've been over by the time the baby was ready to be born.

Your adaptation within one generation hypothesis is contradicted on so many levels

 

[Jonahdog]

Uhhh, that's a line quoted from the documents...about the endowed rights from the Creator.

But not the Constitution. Try doing some competent research on the internet, it is really not that difficult.

 

[Hedshaker]

Never mind

 

[patrick jane]

All evidence to date shows one universe and one planet with intelligent life forms

 

[Hedshaker]

All evidence to date shows one universe and one planet with intelligent life forms

You mean intuition, right? We only know about one universe and one planet with intelligent life forms, so? If intuition was evidence the Sun would still orbit the earth.

This reminds of something I here theist say a lot.....absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence

 

[iouae]

No, but it's clear you're trapped in a logical corner here that you are having trouble deluding yourself out of.

According to you, they must've either all had the ability to withstand all levels of salinity (contradicted by current life) or they all had the ability to adapt to changing salinity in one generation, correct?


Let's just pretend for a second that you're 100% right and all aquatic animals back in flood times had the ability to adapt to changing salinity in one generation. Large whales have a gestation period that is incredibly long. For sperm whales it's 480-590 days. That is way longer than the year you suppose the Biblical flood to have lasted. So if a female whale had been impregnated on the day the flood started, the flood would've been over by the time the baby was ready to be born.

Your adaptation within one generation hypothesis is contradicted on so many levels

The Bible-Flood had only a few air-breathing animals come off the ark and repopulate earth (2 pairs of unclean animals, 7 pairs of clean).
All dogs on earth, as different as they look, come from these pairs. And, in fact, dogs may even have come from a wolf-like animal.

Likewise, we only need a pair of whales, or dolphins to survive the flood, to repopulate earth. And there is evidence for many animals being both salt and fresh water varieties.

The fact that goldfish today cannot take saline water does not negate that their carp-like, less specialised ancestor might have been able to.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Quite true. Humans, bears, and other omnivores have guts and teeth designed to be able to eat both meat and some plant matter (but not much; most is very indigestible to us). Look at your teeth. You have molars for grinding plant matter, incisors for cutting and slicing, and canines for ripping and tearing meat. Lions have massive canines, and lack molars but in their place have teeth that act as scissors to cut the meat into tiny chin is just before its swallowed. Whatever an organism's diet, you can tell by its dental structure.

Depends. A rattlesnake? Not very long. A few hours probably. But a sea snake or anaconda? Days.

Yes, because in order to digest plant matter you must have a certain strain of E. Coli bacteria in your gut. They mostly break down plant matter, while stomach acid breaks down meat.


Sounds good. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have

Dear Greg Jennings,

Thanks! Your comments did help. I know now that snakes could not have survived the Flood without being on the Ark, and other things. That thing about snakes eating straw should have been snakes eating fruit. I missed that one. I appreciate your kindness!! You must admit that my God can do many miracles indeed. Like keeping three men from burning up in a hot furnace by sending someone who could save them from the fire. Also drying up the waters, so that people could walk across the Red Sea. That is just the most trivial beginnings of what He can do.

God Bless Your Heart & Soul,

Michael

 

[Greg Jennings]

The Bible-Flood had only a few air-breathing animals come off the ark and repopulate earth (2 pairs of unclean animals, 7 pairs of clean).
All dogs on earth, as different as they look, come from these pairs. And, in fact, dogs may even have come from a wolf-like animal.

Likewise, we only need a pair of whales, or dolphins to survive the flood, to repopulate earth. And there is evidence for many animals being both salt and fresh water varieties.

The fact that goldfish today cannot take saline water does not negate that their carp-like, less specialised ancestor might have been able to.

If two wolves come off the ark, and they can't kill one of the two sheep in order to eat, how did they survive?

 

[TheDuke]

Please explain how for me

Keep in mind that a strawman is a "sham argument set up to be defeated." Since my argument is meant to defeat you and not myself, how is it a strawman?

If memory serves, this is a recurring theme. He always plays the strawman card without any explanation whenever you address his claims.

 

[6days]

cording to you, they must've either all had the ability to withstand all levels of salinity (contradicted by current life) or they all had the ability to adapt to changing salinity in one generation, correct?

Let's just pretend for a second that you're 100% right and all aquatic animals back in flood times had the ability to adapt to changing salinity in one generation.

Greg....rather than continue creating strawmen... why not quote what was actually said? *You keep fabricating arguments that you feel you can handle.*

Here is what actually was said....
"The*thing is we don't know the salinity of the oceans before or after the flood. We don't know the genetic makeup of pre-flood marine life. We don't know if hundreds of species were eliminated in the flood. We don't know if pools of fresh water could remain unmixed with salty water.

We do know that some modern fish can survive in both of today's environments like salmon. We do know that some fish like sticklebacks have the genetic info to adapt rapidly. We do know that adaptation / speciation is a result of losing pre-existing genetic information. We know that many of today's creatures are highly adapted to specific environments and unable to survive changing conditions."

 

[TheDuke]

Either you believe in biblical creationism or in the THEORY of Evolution. Simple as that.

Oh isn't the world so simple in religious eyes? All black&white.

Well, here's a glimpse of the real world's complexity for you:

• YEC
• OEC
• other creator god
• polytheism
• deism
• naturalism
• evolution guided by divinity
• evolution unguided by divinity but set in motion
• last thursdayism
• etc

 

[6days]

Oh isn't the world so simple in religious eyes? All black&white.

No... not really... however Bright Ravens claim was correct.
Either we believe that God's Word is true and that He created in six days....or you don't believe that. Simple as that!

 

[6days]

The Bible-Flood had only a few air-breathing animals come off the ark and repopulate earth (2 pairs of unclean animals, 7 pairs of clean).
All dogs on earth, as different as they look, come from these pairs. And, in fact, dogs may even have come from a wolf-like animal.

Likewise, we only need a pair of whales, or dolphins to survive the flood, to repopulate earth. And there is evidence for many animals being both salt and fresh water varieties.

The fact that goldfish today cannot take saline water does not negate that their carp-like, less specialised ancestor might have been able to.

Hey... I often disagree with you so I should a acknowledge you when I do agree! Kudos!